Bin Laden is dead!!!!!

[Steel~Sparta~]

All we have to do to inflame tensions overseas is A. contenue to breath and B. not have the nation as a whole convert to Islam. That said I dont give a shit if we inflame tensions.

 

While I do want to see the pics released I am inclined to think they are likely to gruesome for the general public based on the descriptions handed out.

 

I like Gunthers idea early on. we should have grounded him up and used him as fertilizer on the white house lawn. That way it his followers want to pray to him they have to pray to the white house and the Prez. That is sorta a depressing thought if you are one of them I would think.

 

We made the touchdown... now spike the football.

Edited May 6, 2011 by Steel~Sparta~

[Rooster90]

Well, then I suppose we disagree on a fundamental level, so debating on the release will get us nowhere. Where you think that releasing the photo would do no more harm than just being there and being Westerners, I disagree. I think that releasing the photo would do much more harm. If we cant agree on that basic level, no point in arguing any more. I'm no sympathizer to his followers or those who thought of him as a great man, but it's brash diplomacy that got us on such bad terms with most of the world already.

[Cylawyer~SPARTA~]

You are correct Rooster, we disagree on a fundamental level. Brash tactics didn't get us on bad terms with the rest of the world. That's not to say that we haven't made mistakes around the world that pissed some people off, but really, it is a basic truth of human nature that if a target of hate is picked and focused upon by a few, others pick up on it and are eager to hate. Breeders of hate have made us on bad terms with some of the world, but that "some" is still a small part of the totality of the world. However, that small "some" are enough to have us in this pickle with anti-western hate mongers and islamic radical extremists.

 

Then, you need to take the analysis a step further. You need to understand the psychology and cultural perspectives of those islamic radicals. They believe it is a sign of weakness when you seek to negotiate, but they respect strength and a good dose of fear is more effective than extending the olive branch. Now, I know you aren't suggesting we do that, but the point is that concern about inflaming them putting our troops somehow in "more" harm's way than they currently is a unfounded concern. Just the action we took alone in taking out UBL has inflamed some, but now they will also think about UBL's fate. The small increase in jeopardy of our harm to our citizens by releasing pics is outweighed by the impression of strength we give out by the action we took in taking out UBL. That said, I don't need to see them or think they should be released, but as I stated above, I wouldn't refrain from releasing them over concerns about inflaming terrorists around the world to take action against us.

 

I think the strength we projected will overwhelm the inflamation, provided we continue on a strong path to track these terrorists down.

[Rooster90]

It's always unfortunate to see the actions of such a tiny minority have so much influence (weapons, political power) over the majority.

 

If I were to get right down to it, I quite honestly disagree with this unwinnable, unending war. We can never win. There is no objective, no victory conditions. We initially inserted into Afghanistan to overthrow the Taliban and kill bin Laden. We've done both now, but we're so completely involved in rebuilding their country and their government, that leaving is no longer an option. Same with Iraq. If it were up to me, I'd release the photos and start pulling our boys out ASAP. But I'm not so naive to think that will ever happen, or that its even a smart idea. It's just how I feel.

 

I'm more concerned about terrorism brewing at home on our borders. I couldn't care less about some craphole country across the world with no resources for us to pillage. XD

Edited May 6, 2011 by Rooster90

[Durka-Durka~SPARTA~]

Germany wasn't rebuilt in a year, neither was Japan. It takes time, and the taliban still holds power, as long as there is corruption in the government. I don't think that'll ever end though, so might as well kill as many as we can while we're over there.

 

Many of us here have seen up close how that culture operates. They respect power, and little else. They may turn a knife on you when you turn around, but as long as you're looking, and holding your big stick, they listen. I remember a story somewhere down the line where a British officer was having a meeting with a tribesman in Afghanistan. He took off his helmet, supposedly to show he meant no harm to them. The village elder produced an axe and split his head open. The moral of the story, (God Rest his soul) is there's a reason folks don't think appeasing the enemy is smart. There are plenty of examples. And there are some examples of being able to sit down at the table, although much of that involves money of course.

[Rooster90]

Well, the difference between us than being that you're viewing the tribes as enemies rather than civilians/allies.

 

I'm not so thick as to realize that there aren't tribes with hidden motives or tribes that aren't violent. But again, we're trying to win them over to our side. And I think to some degree we've been successful. There are still incredibly violent areas of Afghanistan, but there is a silent majority growing that hate and despise the Taliban just as much as we do. We're there to prove to them that we want to help them and not destroy their country, kill their families, or control their lives.

 

I can't say I've been over there or experienced it first hand, but being in the military currently with guys who've just come home from there offers me fresh input as to what is going on there. Every area of the country is different though, so one soldier's experience may not be the same as another's.

[Durka-Durka~SPARTA~]

My point is that they respect power. Leave them questioning who's the post powerful tribe, and they will never come to our side. The taliban came into power in the 90s, and few of the Afghanis could so anything about it. Then we come in, chase them out for the most part, and their loyalties are still not clear. That culture is a totally alien system that nobody has ever been able to understand fully.

 

It's a great place to wage war. It's a terrible place to nation-build.

[Zeno~SPARTA~]

I would argue that the idea is not about upsetting your enemies, its about upsetting your friends. Not every muslim is Americas enemy and many are your friends. Disrespecting the rites and rituals of someones religion may add people to the extremist cause. I believe that is the consideration.

 

He was put down like a mad dog, its over. Pasting his picture all over serves his cause, not yours.

 

I have read some things here and I totally understand it, but if you foresake your civility and fall to medieval barbarism (heads on spikes and such like), it is the terrorist that has won.

[Rooster90]

Couldn't have said it better myself Zeno. Had the words in my head, wasn't able to put it into writing.

[Batwing~SPARTA~]

I would argue that the idea is not about upsetting your enemies, its about upsetting your friends. Not every muslim is Americas enemy and many are your friends. Disrespecting the rites and rituals of someones religion may add people to the extremist cause. I believe that is the consideration.

 

He was put down like a mad dog, its over. Pasting his picture all over serves his cause, not yours.

 

I have read some things here and I totally understand it, but if you foresake your civility and fall to medieval barbarism (heads on spikes and such like), it is the terrorist that has won.

 

The best..

[Durka-Durka~SPARTA~]

I would agree with you, if the muslim world didn't have a track record of doing much worse to their own people, while nary a peep of opposition. The simple fact as I see it is that those in the muslim world who want to speak up about such things see a weakness in our careful and nuanced treatment of a dead corpse who by all rights, wasn't a peaseful muslim, and they will exploit that for whatever gain they choose.

 

The tone of the stories coming out of al jazeera for the past few days is proof that, no matter what we do, we are wrong.

 

I will wait to give further opinions when I see what muslims do to qadaffi's body when he dies.

[MedicSN6]

Whether you like it or not, the White House just released photographic proof that Osama Bin laden has been laid to rest (i.e. dumped) in the ocean.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Zeno~SPARTA~]

Fair comment, but the bullies of the muslim world, which are the ones we see and hear the most do not represent the ordinary muslims, who are just ordinary people going about their business.You are right no matter what the US does, such bullies find fault, but the ordinary Joe might not. If there is any hope for peace it will be when the ordinary Joe stands up to the bullies and tells them to fuck off, that guy might remember that the US is respectful even of their enemies.

 

I have some thoughts on this that I would like to get your insight on, maybe one day we could have a chat about it.

[MedicSN6]

I guess my $0.02 aren't welcome. Nevermind.

Edited May 6, 2011 by Medic~SPARTA~

[Zeno~SPARTA~]

Now I remember why I dont like to participate in these topics.

[MedicSN6]

Again, nevermind.

Edited May 6, 2011 by Medic~SPARTA~

[Rolf]

So, you and others posted your opinions and when someone else posts something contrary to yours, you shutdown? I am open to dissenting opinions, if I like your argument and it is better than my current understanding, I have no problem changing my mind. So, please tell me what information I stated that you disagree with and we'll start there.

 

I'll wager that a number of us are hesitant to get into any discussions involving politics/religion as in my experience at least they have the potential to get quite heated. I have found that emotional differences in opinion and misunderstandings can be quite commonplace. Therefore it's understandable that a few of us are reluctant to get into such discussions with people we respect or get along with as there are usually strong opinions on such matters that tend to polarize people unnecessarily. Plus the arguments tend to go on and on and it all gets rather tiring especially when there are more fun things to talk about such as Batwing's mishaps with certain objects.

 

When i'm drinking in the pub with mates and conversation starts to wander onto contentious topics which are bound to end in seriously frayed tempers then i'll often just shout "Veto!". We'll end the conversation and start chatting about more light hearted things like about women who have gigantic knockers that you could hide a badger in. Ending participation in a discussion is not meant to be disrespectful to those who are passionate about the subject, it's just an indication that it's probably time to chat about something else and get another round in.

Edited May 6, 2011 by Rolf

[Durka-Durka~SPARTA~]

You know, if bin laden wasn't such a fanatic, between the breasts of a fine woman would be the perfect place to hide out. That just might be where he was at all along...

[Rolf]

You know, if bin laden wasn't such a fanatic, between the breasts of a fine woman would be the perfect place to hide out. That just might be where he was at all along...

 

I agree, breasts make a fine place to hide in.

 

Perhaps instead of shooting OBL he should have been imprisoned for life between the breasts of Hillary Clinton. It would be a fate far worse than death!

[Durka-Durka~SPARTA~]

I'm getting a mental picture of that pit in Return of the Jedi.

[KalXen~SPARTA~]

So, you and others posted your opinions and when someone else posts something contrary to yours, you shutdown? I am open to dissenting opinions, if I like your argument and it is better than my current understanding, I have no problem changing my mind. So, please tell me what information I stated that you disagree with and we'll start there.

 

In your own words: "Don't start no shit and it won't be none, son."

 

I personally see no benefit of this thread other than people getting their frustration out. But if it turns into a debate of opinions, it could easily turn into something else.

[Rooster90]

I respect Zeno's decision to drop out. He does what I simply cannot, lol. I guess I'll point out as many of the things that I saw disagreement with instead.

 

"You cannot have a decent conversation with a person who wants nothing more than to cut your head off and show it on the internet to get their message across." - harsh generalization (some would say incredibly bigoted/racist) of all Muslim people. The people who actually want to do this are such a small minority that if they didn't have the means/support to carry out violence and spread their message of hate, they couldn't. Thats like saying there's neo-Nazi's in rural America that have a history of causing violence, so that must mean all of rural America hate Jews and want to overthrow our government.

 

"EVERY mother fLucker in that city set out to kill any American they could" - I'm sure most of us are all very familiar with the story. But again, you generalize and say everyone was involved. That is simply not the case at all. Most Somalians were very grateful for our help. We were carrying out this particular operation in a part of the city that was known for it's heavy concentration of militia. If you read the book (I'm assuming you have), even the Imam local to that part of town was actually disgusted and surprised by the treatment of those bodies. It's not really something they have history of doing at all (at least not the locals. Can't say much for the pirates or other terrorist/criminal organizations).

 

"Their religion does not allow for who they deem to be an infidel to be on their land or fight for their causes regardless of whether or not we believe it to be in the right." -Only a radical interpretation of the Quran guides this particular theology. The Quran and Islam is not an inherently violent religion. While "infidels" are still not allowed to enter sacred places such as Mosques, that doesn't mean they don't know the difference between right and wrong and who is fighting for what.

 

"For us to simply 'take the high road' and do nothing because it would be the equivalent to letting the enemy win or get the better of us is ridiculous." -this statement and the following paragraph is probably what I disagree with the most. It's a two-faced statement. On one hand you firmly believe we have the moral high ground (which I'd agree with for the most part). But you're also saying that we need to throw that away and become barbarians just like them in order to win. Now that I can't stand for. I'm not saying that war doesn't come at a high cost. We have our military to carry out swift and just violence. They are men who are killing other men, it's not a pretty thing. But just because the enemy is willing to do anything, including sacrificing themselves and their children for their cause in the most violent, sickening ways, that doesn't mean we have to too. If anything, the more women and children that fall victim to their cause, it works to our favor by not doing so and fighting with honor, dignity, and respect. We win the population over by being the better man and treating human life and freedom with the utmost importance. We're there not to show them what they've known for thousands of years, we're there to show them a better world, a better way of life. The majority of people very likely do want to help us, but they've only known fear and distrust in their lives. Their families and livelihood are at stake when they share information with us. So I can understand why so many give misleading information or are afraid of telling the truth. There's a gun pointed at their family's face when we're not looking.

 

Now, despite all these points that I disagree with you on, there's one shining paragraph in your post that I have nothing but agreement with. And it bears repeating I like it so much.

 

"The only solution to this inherent problem, though, is to not participate. We need to be constantly vigilant in our own intelligence and defense. If ever the time were to arise where we needed to fight, then I say we meet those mother fuckers at the gates of Hell itself, settle that shit right then and there and then go home."

 

EDIT: Of course, the original post is gone. :/ I thought we were all having a rather nice, mature discussion here. I harbor no animosity towards those I disagree with. I just love debating with people, if you couldn't tell. I saw no signs of things getting heated or personal, but then again, maybe it's best to drop it now.

 

DOUBLE EDIT: It's not that your opinion isn't welcome, Medic. Like you, I wholly welcome the discussion and debate of any subject as long as it stays civil and non-personal. It's not so much the content of an idea that can be offensive/confrontational, but the way in which we word our opinions is what really makes the difference.

Edited May 7, 2011 by Halli~SPARTA~

[MedicSN6]

Thanks for the mature and honest post Rooster. I appreciate it. I know I generalized a bit and wasn't very clear in some of my posts and you pointed out the section where I honestly should have and could have been more specific. Permit me to do so now.

 

"You cannot have a decent conversation with a person who wants nothing more than to cut your head off and show it on the internet to get their message across." - harsh generalization (some would say incredibly bigoted/racist) of all Muslim people. The people who actually want to do this are such a small minority that if they didn't have the means/support to carry out violence and spread their message of hate, they couldn't. Thats like saying there's neo-Nazi's in rural America that have a history of causing violence, so that must mean all of rural America hate Jews and want to overthrow our government.

 

No where in that sentence or context did I say it was ALL Muslims. I consider it a given that we are speaking of the radicals who are the ones fighting us and certainly not the other millions of peaceful Muslims such as the two Physicians that I work with in the ER. Those guys have given me more perspective on the Muslims point-of-view than I could ever hope for. I am grateful for their knowledge. So, for you to conclude that I meant ALL Muslims out of context is incorrect, and since that point is moot, it doesn't make my statement false.

 

"EVERY mother fucker in that city set out to kill any American they could" - I'm sure most of us are all very familiar with the story. But again, you generalize and say everyone was involved. That is simply not the case at all. Most Somalians were very grateful for our help. We were carrying out this particular operation in a part of the city that was known for it's heavy concentration of militia. If you read the book (I'm assuming you have), even the Imam local to that part of town was actually disgusted and surprised by the treatment of those bodies. It's not really something they have history of doing at all (at least not the locals. Can't say much for the pirates or other terrorist/criminal organizations).

 

Again a generalization was made and I apologize, but when the final tally is 1,000+ enemy dead to 19 U.S. dead, and the 1,000 could have been far greater if we hadn't left, you have to agree that it wasn't just a group of rag-tag militia that were fighting us. Someone had to set the hundreds of fires along the edges of the city to keep us out. Someone had to warn the militia that the U.S. was entering the city en mass. The city was organized to disseminate information quickly and to secure key positions around the city including arms dumps and potential HVTs. To say it was just "militia," which is made up of the people by definition, is wholly inaccurate and a huge understatement. Granted, it may have not been everyone as in the women and children too, but the city came out in force to get rid of the infidel presence in their city, regardless of their liking of Adid.

 

"Their religion does not allow for who they deem to be an infidel to be on their land or fight for their causes regardless of whether or not we believe it to be in the right." -Only a radical interpretation of the Quran guides this particular theology. The Quran and Islam is not an inherently violent religion. While "infidels" are still not allowed to enter sacred places such as Mosques, that doesn't mean they don't know the difference between right and wrong and who is fighting for what.

 

Again, I understand the difference between radical and peaceful Muslims. It is the Same between some little old Baptist church going grandmother and the Westboro Baptist Church. You assume I meant ALL Muslim's interpretation of the Quran and I simply didn't. We were talking about Radicals of Al Qaeda and the Taliban, not the average farmer who is a slave to his family just to put food on the table. We could say the same about the Bible. If some Christian radicals wanted to own slaves again because it says so in the Bible, they would try it. Luckily for us though, we outlawed that shit long ago.

 

"For us to simply 'take the high road' and do nothing because it would be the equivalent to letting the enemy win or get the better of us is ridiculous." -this statement and the following paragraph is probably what I disagree with the most. It's a two-faced statement. On one hand you firmly believe we have the moral high ground (which I'd agree with for the most part). But you're also saying that we need to throw that away and become barbarians just like them in order to win. Now that I can't stand for. I'm not saying that war doesn't come at a high cost. We have our military to carry out swift and just violence. They are men who are killing other men, it's not a pretty thing. But just because the enemy is willing to do anything, including sacrificing themselves and their children for their cause in the most violent, sickening ways, that doesn't mean we have to too. If anything, the more women and children that fall victim to their cause, it works to our favor by not doing so and fighting with honor, dignity, and respect. We win the population over by being the better man and treating human life and freedom with the utmost importance. We're there not to show them what they've known for thousands of years, we're there to show them a better world, a better way of life. The majority of people very likely do want to help us, but they've only known fear and distrust in their lives. Their families and livelihood are at stake when they share information with us. So I can understand why so many give misleading information or are afraid of telling the truth. There's a gun pointed at their family's face when we're not looking.

 

Do we really have the moral high ground? What makes our morals superior or more justified than anyone else's morals? The Bible vs. the Quran? Which one came first? Which one is more correct or more truthful?

 

I put 'take the high road' in apostrophes because it is a term tossed around by our politicians to grant some type of immunity to the dirty deeds we do to win a war. Yes my thoughts are somewhat two faced, but only because war has two sides, more specifically, it is a balancing act of self defined morality versus acts of atrocity. We are all to happy if we can keep the tilt on the side of morality leaving as few atrocities as possible. Our enemy believes that their atrocities are justified by the same tool they used to determine their morality. So one becomes the other and sense and rationale are lost. All that is left is blood lust. Enough blood lust to embed sleepers into our own flight training programs and then at an opportune moment, hijack multiple airplanes and fly them into as many important buildings as possible.

 

Now, the only way to fight an irrational enemy in an effective way is to be just as irrational as they could ever be. Or at least make it seems as such. I am with you though. I like a fair, honorable fight. And to this very day we haven't seen one out of these assholes. IED's, ambushes, children and women used as suicide bombs and decoys to lure us in. These things are not honorable.

If we are there to show them a better way of life... first, what makes us so goddamn righteous? We meddle too much as it is. Second, why the hell are we trying to foster the 'better way of life' while holding rifles, machine guns, grenades, and rocket launchers? I am positive there is a better way than this. Some example we are setting. As far as those who are afraid to help out of fear of retaliation, I harbor not ill-will towards them. I know they have to look out for themselves and their families. If they were to be killed, their families would have no one to support them.

 

As far as the debate in general, I look at the people in this community as peers and individuals who opinions I can trust and learn from. If people want to shy away from any rational conversation regardless of the topic, that is their prerogative and I have nothing bad to say about them.

 

The only way a society can be called civil is through civil discourse. Without the discourse and the processing of as many ideas, good or bad, there can be no finite conclusion and only the repetition of past mistakes. If someone gets butt-hurt over a comment, idea, or thought process, it is of their own prejudice or sheer unwillingness to understand why that comment, idea, or thought process, right or wrong, was produced.

 

Rooster, thanks for having a good discussion. I know this isn't everyone's cup of tea, but for those who have lived through it, it weighs on our minds daily. I have many regrets and heartache because of my time in service to my country. The closest that some people will ever get to actual war is a video game and while I can never and will never hold that against them because their lives took them on a different path, I can never expect them to fully understand me or where I come from sometimes.

[custard~SPARTA~]

We take the moral high ground when we do not mention religion when talking about an evil terrorist bastard unless we say we buried him in keeping with his religous beliefs which is what the US did, and that act makes all of the US better than him.

 

Making the mistake of copying his vitriolic evil mistakes reduces us to his level and is repugnant.

 

@Medic you should never regret serving your country you should allways look back on it with pride.

[Zeno~SPARTA~]

Medic I will discuss any topic with you to the best of my ability in Teamspeak, but not in the forums. I involved myself in a discussion about a photograph, you expanded the discussion enormously. You didnt chip in with 2cts, you chipped in with $50.

 

The written word is subject to misinterpretation no matter how well conceived.

 

And I am not "butt-hurt".

 

Z