This is not looking good for VW

[Zathrus~SPARTA~]

oh...

 

I just realized that mpg here in the USA and mpg in the UK are different.

 

So just for reference:

USA 10mpg = UK 12mpg

USA 20mpg = UK 24mpg

USA 30mpg = UK 36mpg

USA 40mpg = UK 48mpg

 

So... in UK MPG numbers:

My neighbors 4000 pound off road Jeep gets 10.8mpg running around town and gets about 14mpg on the highway (I think you can see why I got rid of mine)

My Toyota FJ Cruiser, which is a 5200 pound off road 4x4 gets 25mpg running around town and about 30mpg on the highway.

My Father's 6000 pound hybrid SUV 4x4 (NOT an off road 4x4) gets 40mpg on the highway and more than 50mpg running around town (it uses the electric motors in town)

 

It is possible to make very large heavy vehicles that are relatively good on fuel economy and very clean burning (good mpg usually means very lean burn which is cleaner)

Also... as you can see, when it comes to 4x4's, size does not dictate economy or how clean it burns.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Zathrus~SPARTA~

[Cylawyer~SPARTA~]

Big car refers to size, not pollutants. Poor MPG relates to efficiency of burn as it relates to revolutions of the engine, not number of pollutants expelled. Now, poor MPG could mean that there are more pollutants released, or it might not. MPG does relate to rate of consumption of a fossil fuel that MAY be a limited resource (probably is a limited resource, but some recent evidence shows that there is more of that resource than once thought and the limits of it aren't at the point of concern yet) which could be wasteful of that fuel, but environmentalists and the EPA aren't concerned over wasting fuel. In fact, if it were wasted to the point of the resource tapping out, they'd be happy.

 

I agree with Zath on the ethics issue. That is the problem I have with it.

 

All that said, as long as the 4x4 is meeting regulatory standards, why should anyone have a say as to whether I "need" the 4x4 or not. That is my decision. Even if I don't use it at all, perhaps I need it as a contingency? I can't stand the idea of someone wanting to decide for me if I need something or not. That is the antithesis of freedom and a core concept of communism! I know you weren't proposing that Zath, only making an observation.

[Zathrus~SPARTA~]

well yes... my point has been with Custard that size does not really matter. We can make very efficient vehicles that are really big.... if the customer is willing to pay for it.

 

And yes... back on topic,

 

The problem I have with VW in this whole thing is not the fact that their vehicles are in some cases releasing 40 times the allowed limits on some greenhouse gases... although I find that irritating because it does not need to be that way.

 

The main problem I have with this whole thing is They chose, to have their engineering teams develop engine control systems that break the law.

Breaking the law due to an oversight... or a mistake in test and development is one thing.

But instructing your engineers to write software to break the law is a whole different problem... this is an ethics issue that cannot be tolerated.

 

Right now, the EPA is saying that just the 496,000 vehicles sold here in the USA may incur Penalties and fines of 18 to 20 billion dollars.

Because the fines may actually reach between $35,000 and $40,000 per vehicle.

 

I hope they throw the book a them. I hope Europe also throws the book at them. There needs to be a VERY CLEAR message to all that this will not be tolerated. So they are going to need to make an example of them.

[Forrester~SPARTA~]

I am doing 47 mpg with a 5 seater 3195 lbs car even though it pollutes more than promised it is still way less than any SUV- Truck

[Forrester~SPARTA~]

I´m sure any automobile brand does cheat on pollution figures

[Zathrus~SPARTA~]

figures possibly.

The problem is, for US automakers this is of course possible for them to do... but the fines by the EPA here are enormous if you get caught... as VW is about to find out.

They essentially throw a fine of whatever the car's retail price was plus $5K to $10K (for VW it is looking like $35000 to $38000 per car) for each car out of compliance that has been sold... that adds up quickly.

I am unsure of how many are actually crazy enough to attempt that with those numbers staring at them.

 

I am unsure of Europe's fine system on this.

 

Our Hybrid 4Dr. sedans here that weigh typically 3400 to 3800 pounds typically get 55 to 60 mpg.

My father's 6000 pound hybrid SUV gets almost as good economy as your car.

 

IF the object is to reduce fossil fuel usage... for now Hybrids are not a bad way to go. The batteries I agree are an issue... but we will figure that out.

Hybrids do tend to double the fuel economy relative to their all gas counterparts over here.

[Zeno~SPARTA~]

All tests on automobiles are a "cheat" because the conditions of the tests are so artificial, but the figures they provide are useful relative performance figures, ie vehicule A pollutes less than vehicule B or is more economical. But on the whole MPG and Pollution figures do not properly reflect real world outcomes.

 

The inconceivable decision to dick around with the engine management is very different. The saddest element of this is the effect on the innocent workers who make these cars and were proud of them. VW sales are already 8% down for the month, this will surely lead redundancies.

 

On another note, I am struggling to believe the latest accusations of the EPA concerning the V6 diesels. VW owned up to "fixing" 11 million cars I dont see that they would lie at this stage of the game.

[Watchman~SPARTA~]

It will be interesting to see how this impacts on Bosch and I know they already put out a comment saying they advised VW Group not to do this. But having worked for VW group via Bentley and dealt with Bosch previously, they are a company notorious for not letting you have access to their tech at a level where you can tinker with the code. All of that was done in-house to customer requirements.

[Zathrus~SPARTA~]

Yes... having their in house engineering teams build code to defeat the tests to me is.... not tolerable. We cannot allow companies to do this.

If there are more, they will be caught. Here in the USA they are starting to check everything... and they are looking for code in the ECM as well as running road tests.

This is how they caught the V6 in the porsche.

 

VW has said they are finding big inconsistencies internally. It is quite possible that after the code was created, they are now unsure of every model it may have been implemented in.

At this point I do not think they are trying to hide anything... they are trying to manage a crisis. But I think they may not be sure how bad it is... which is understandable.

Especially with something like this, that was likely kept secret except for a very small circle... they may still be looking to figure out where this started and where it ends.

 

Zeno you are correct that the tests are artificial, but they are a base line as you also pointed out.

Having a baseline is the only way to know where we are relative to where we were... and to compare models

[Zathrus~SPARTA~]

Oh... having managed recalls for car companies I notice things. This week after the EPA announced the V6 in that porche had the cheat code in it, then VW announced to the press they were finding "large internal inconsistencies".

 

Whenever a car company that is managing a crisis recall says "we are finding large internal inconsistencies"; what they are saying is at this point they are unsure of where the recall starts and stops.

I think they are still trying to figure out where all they used this code. They know the 4cyl for sure.... but they have seen data that indicates there MAY be more.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Zathrus~SPARTA~

[Rocky]

I spent my formitive years driving VW's, specifically two Scirocco's, absolutely loved them.

 

Very sad to see it come to this for VW, and call me naive, but very surprised they allowed this to happen - I would have thought that when the employees concerned were considering this deception, they would have carried out a benefit v risk estimate, if they had, the idea of a defeat device would never have got off the ground.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Rocky

[Watchman~SPARTA~]

I spent my formitive years driving VW's, specifically two Scirocco's, absolutely loved them.

 

Very sad to see it come to this for VW, and call me naive, but very surprised they allowed this to happen - I would have thought that when the employees concerned were considering this deception, they would have carried out a benefit v risk estimate, if they had, the idea of a defeat device would never have got off the ground.

 

I don't doubt for one second that fairly senior people were involved in this decision. stuff like this just doesn't happen at lower / middle levels of staffing. Plus, this is not the first time VW have been caught up in a big scandal, they seem to have an appetite for the easy win.

[Zathrus~SPARTA~]

oh yeah... this did not happen without a very high level order to do it.

There is no way they could have had their engineering teams develop this without an actual engineering project to create it.

After creating it... they had to test it to make sure it worked... and was not easily detectable.

That does not happen without very high level approval. Engineering teams as you can imagine are expensive.

 

The sad thing is, once created, the code's implementation into cars would have been invisible to all except engineering. This is why I think they are trying to figure out where all they actually used this.

They are indicating that while they know the 4 cyl. is affected... there are inconsistencies in their internal records, which is them saying we see the possibility it was implemented in other engines also.

With the EPA finding the code in the Porsche V6 diesel, it is likely it is in several of their engines, some they may not even be aware of at the moment if those involved with this fiasco have been fired or quit.

[Athlon64~SPARTA~]

With the introduction of the computer control systems on vehicles now days they are running as clean as they are going to get with the optimum of 14.7 to one air to fuel ratio is as lean as a combustion can run, the spent fuel and emissions are dumped in to a catalytic converter that lights off with exhaust tempture to over 1200 degrees this converts the pollutants of combustion from carbon monoxide to carbon dieoxide that is more eco friendly. it is monitored buy the oxygen sensior or 02 sensior that turns the exhaust temp into a mili volt signal that is sent to the ecm. one used to be enough, but now there is a up stream of the catalytic converter and down stream of the catalytic converter to measure the difference between the 2 so the ecm can react to the difference buy eather riching or leaning the pulse with signal to the fuel enjectiors to stay with in a range once the engine is warmed up. Fuel management. Pollution is way down from what it was 20 years ago, hardly see any smog now days at all.

 

All vehicles big and small use this system-ALL. The newest diesels use this as well, they have more particulate matter in the exhaust or soot then a gas fuel engine does and do not burn cleaner then a gas engine does. They go into what is known as a regen mode to burn the particulate matter off the catalytic converter to clean the honeycomb to keep from having to derate its horsepower to stay with in the emission rate.

 

They don't even want the crank case fumes to escape into the atmosphere anymore they vent it thru the pcv valve and is directed it to the intake and burned. and they do not want raw fuel molcules from the gas tank to escape into the atmosphere eather, they run it thru a carbon canister filter and then its directed in to the intake and burned as well

 

They are real serious about this now, in California they have vent boots on the gas station fuel nozzles to prevent raw fuel molicules from escaping in to the atmosphere as well.

 

The 3rd world countrys are the biggest polluters now days with no anti pollution laws in affect. Like china and the like that don't give a crap about it.

 

What VW did was to derate the horsepower of the engine to pass emissions test, dureing the test, once the test was over it would revert back to full power so the owners would have a zippy fast little diesel car that polluted more then the emission standards said it should and got caught.

 

The future of the electric car is FUEL CELLS is the best of all of it. add water and go.

Edited November 8, 2015 by Athlon64~SPARTA~

[Forrester~SPARTA~]

thing about hybrid cars is that most arent used in hybrid mode, and use way more fuel than predicted (Toyota prius does 10 kilometres per litre according to lease companys, in stead of 30!) just because of the tax refund on so called eco friendly cars in the Netherlands. The governement is shutting down the program because of its malfunction

[Zathrus~SPARTA~]

Hmmm... that seems to be a problem specific to Europe Forrester.

You cannot adjust the hybrid mode of operation here in the USA. It is fixed and hard coded into the computers.

 

In the USA, if you buy a hybrid. It operates as a hybrid, you have zero control of it.

Some do have a performance mode that uses more electric motor during acceleration so more torque goes to the wheels for some exciting acceleration.

But as far as I know, beyond that they cannot be adjusted.

Edited November 8, 2015 by Zathrus~SPARTA~

[Zeno~SPARTA~]

Hybrids are the same here, what forrester is saying is that the Prius ends up being a heavy small engined car because the battery time is so short. I dont know if this true for the newer Prius but it was true for the old one in most conditions. The newer plugin hybrids are much better because they have 20+ miles battery range, so you really can spend more time on the electric motor.

[Zathrus~SPARTA~]

Ah! Thank-you for that clarification Zeno.

 

We have full electric hybrids over here. Those are all electric cars with a small gas engine to assist.

Those are not quite as popular here. I think that problem we have seen here but yes they have improved.

 

Over here the majority of our hybrids are "passive hybrids" and basically the fact it is a Hybrid is invisible to the owner except for the badge and some extra lights and readouts on his dash. They are not designed to be totally electric.

 

They are designed to be gas engine vehicles with electric assist, especially in stop and go conditions that just eat fuel. The systems are very effective.

The batteries charge during braking and whenever you lift off the gas. electric motors are used during acceleration for power, and to generate rapid recharge of the batteries during braking.

Typically increasing mileage over an identical all gas model by more than 60%

My Father's big SUV is a passive hybrid and his mileage is excellent for such a large heavy vehicle.

[Elvis~SPARTA~]

VW is too important for Germany, so it won't fail. Different cast of characters, but it won't go away. Came quite close to buying a TDI a few years ago.

[Zathrus~SPARTA~]

Nobody believes VW will go away.

The EPA and European counterparts are not in the business of destroying jobs.

 

What is likely to happen is this.

1) Europe and the USA will confer, come up with a penalty plan that will require VW to sell ALL non VW assets in order to pay it.

2)Again, they are not in the business to destroy jobs. The sale of all these assets will be pre-arranged behind closed doors.

3)The penalties will be announced and enforced.

 

VW when it is over, will only own companies that build VW's. Essentially they will hit them with fines hard enough to chew up most of their

cash and all of the companies that do not build VW vehicles. This while devastating to the Corporation is almost invisible to the guy working the line

in a plant somewhere. Typically this is how the EPA has operated.

 

That is what I think will happen. They will hit VW hard enough to be devastating to the Corporation without hurting the little guy as much as possible.

The jobs will not be risked. But they will ensure that VW pays a nasty penalty for all of this, nasty enough that nobody else dare get caught.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Zathrus~SPARTA~

[Athlon64~SPARTA~]

They will pay the fines and reprogram the ecms back to emission standards

[Zathrus~SPARTA~]

Its not that simple Athlon

 

First of all, Because of how this was done, reprogramming the ECM to is going to completely change the HP/Torque curve of the engine.

Many of these vehicles are automatics... therefore, now the transmissions have the wrong shift points. Now that has to be reprogrammed also.

The list of things screwed up by completely reprogramming the ECM is long.

So this is not an easy fix as it may seem.

 

Second of all, right now, just with the 486000 vehicles in the USA = $18 billion in fines. Europe has 5 times that number... with a similar fine structure from what I can understand.

This would bankrupt entire countries.

 

So no... they are not just going to pay the fines and drive on.

 

This is a serious enough issue, that Europe and the USA will collaborate on a fine structure and the sale of their non VW assets to help pay those fines.

VW has $25 billion in cash reserves, I guarantee they will take all of that also.

 

This cannot be tolerated therefore they will make this so painful, it takes VW to the brink... but we won't make them fail. That would destroy jobs.

It will be so ugly however other corporations will not want to take this risk.

[Watchman~SPARTA~]

I understand your logic regarding the punitive steps but assuming by 'non VW assets' you mean other brands such as Skoda, Seat, Bentley, Lamborghini, Bugatti etc then there will be fallout.

VW, Audi,Seat, Skoda all share a common platform technology that is planned at least 5 years in advance. You can't just sell off Audi, Seat and Skoda without having serious technology agreements in place.

Then The likes of Bentley, Bugatti and Lamborghini will be a nightmare to shift due to the cost and the fact they are seriously in the red. Bentley alone owes circa 250 million to VW, which is budgeted to pay back over a number of years. Bugatti sell at a loss. This companies sell and the little man gets hit. Happened when Ford sold Aston Martin, these brands are luxuries and won't shift easily.

[Zathrus~SPARTA~]

I understand the concerns. Your correct it will not be easy or simple. It will be done likely behind closed doors as has happened in the past. They will ensure they do NOT destroy jobs... or at least

do everything they can to try and prevent it. But the punitive structure for a serious violation like this would lean towards stripping them of their cash reserves and any assets that are not VW.

 

Nobody is interested in killing them. That does nothing but bring hardship to a lot of innocent people who lose jobs with the closing due to something they had ZERO control over. Environmental protection

agencies are not in the business of destroying jobs historically. They work with the entities involved in most cases.

 

The model sharing is not a problem at all. Cooperation and sharing of models between manufacturers occurs on a regular basis in the Auto industry today. So the contracts needed, etc. are already built.

All of that will be negotiated and created behind closed doors before the sales of the assets are authorized to pay the penalties. They will require this all get laid out so there are no hiccups when the penalties are applied.

 

The point will be to strip VW back down to it's origins... VW...and fine all of their cash out in a manner that is horrific enough... everyone knows... we do NOT want to risk that!

 

I could be wrong and they leave a few non VW assets. Anything is possible, but I am certain when they are done it will be very clear after seeing what happens to VW that

nobody else wants to follow them and repeat. That Corporation is going to take a financial beating from hell.

[Zeno~SPARTA~]

Everything you need to know.

 

http://blog.caranddriver.com/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-vw-diesel-emissions-scandal/