Restrictions on air asset use on the US public domination server

[AJsarge]

Doppel- It's nice being able to play on a server that has its own mission makers who know what they are doing.

 

And the only thing that I see happening to the server is people migrating away to other servers due to the restrictions that SPARTA places on flying/driving in the game. Like gun control, it doesn't always have the desired effect, and there is a point where it gets silly and overly obnoxious even to those who are regulars and follow the rules.

[Zeno~SPARTA~]

In order to air this subject properly you now have a seperate topic to discuss this matter.

 

Feel free to share your thoughts

[MH6~SPARTA~]

The restrictions were put in place to try and alleviate the problem with asshats coming in, taking the chopper/MHQ off to who knows where, and leaving them. It is an effort to lighten the load admins must carry, as they are usually forced to sit in base, baby-sitting the children that frequent public servers.

 

Most, if not all, TS regulars should have chopper/MHQ rights.

 

Quite honestly if someone throws a tantrum and leaves because they can't fly the chopper or drive the MHQ, then good riddance. It's not like it takes much effort to join and be active on teamspeak.

[Zeno~SPARTA~]

AJ, are you talking about the pilot and MHQ list or the fact that we dont use many attack aircraft on the Sparta server.

[Skaz~SPARTA~]

the domination with air vehicles and MBT's for example gets to easy. If you put in a cobra, heck, we infantry might as well not even march into town. Yesterday night we were playing and having lots of fun in the ground. Only one F35 in the air, taking care of enemy air assets, and majority on ppl on ts was on the ground pushing our way into the towns.

[Durka-Durka~SPARTA~]

I almost threw a tantrum last night because the ten minutes I was in, I saw people taking the choppers all over. I was at base, with thre others waiting for chopper pickup, flashed the text on the screen 3 times, only to hear the pilot on TS say he was leaving his chopper at the AO .

 

At this point, I just said "f-it, I'll fly" so I took two other troops to the AO, came back and somebody was trying to repair another chopper that had been left. I dropped down, saw that it was a wreck, didn't see anyone on the ground, then left. Instead of shouting at me to stop, I was shot at.

 

Speaking for myself, the thing that's going to get people leaving the server isn't the restrictions on vehicle use, it's the goofiness and nonteamworkiness of those who are allowed to fly that piss people off.

 

 

[Skaz~SPARTA~]

I think durka spoke for everyone.

 

"it's the goofiness and nonteamworkiness of those who are allowed to fly that piss people off."

 

[Ebden~SPARTA~]

I think durka spoke for everyone.

 

"it's the goofiness and nonteamworkiness of those who are allowed to fly that piss people off."

 

 

Yes, right, but he doesn't have to be so Disney about it. Why not "it's the smacktard morons who f*ck up the server."

 

I'm pleased as piss in a fire that idiots won't get to fly. The server isn't supposed to be popular, it's supposed to suit the gameplay style we want. Great to get pubbers in the server, it's how I found Sparta, and even better when pubbers like Sparta's style of play. Of course, if they don't like the style, then there are plenty of other servers and games to play (that's the difference between this and gun control, it's much easier to move to other servers than to move countries. Nothing personal AJ)

 

Though, given Durka's comment, is the air restriction program not functioning, or were the people flying incorrectly on the list?

[Zeno~SPARTA~]

There are a lot of people on the list. Some are more responsible then others

[custard~SPARTA~]

Do we not have a policy of a temp revoke of flying privileges for using a chopper as personal transport?

[Ebden~SPARTA~]

There are a lot of people on the list. Some are more responsible then others

 

Yes, true, but there are minimum standards, right? That's the whole point of the limitation. Example from Durka's post..."I was at base, with thre others waiting for chopper pickup, flashed the text on the screen 3 times, only to hear the pilot on TS say he was leaving his chopper at the AO"

 

While operating as the sole pilot (since we only run 1 helo unless crowded), should the pilot who left the Helo at the AO have returned to ferry more players? If so, should the pilot be removed from the list for a period of time?

[EMT~SPARTA~]

I personally like the restrictions... Now when I come into the server, I see all 3 choppers usually sitting there. Making it much easier to help out people that don't know what they are doing. People may be leaving cause they don't know how to ask questions if they dont know what they are doing.

 

When i first came on, i asked questions and in 15 min i was at the Main AO helping everyone out.

We are on teamspeak cause we asked questions... We all just have to realize that people in general aren't very smart and if they get frustrated over sparta's simplistic server, then thats darwin working for us.

 

[Durka-Durka~SPARTA~]

Yes, true, but there are minimum standards, right? That's the whole point of the limitation. Example from Durka's post..."I was at base, with thre others waiting for chopper pickup, flashed the text on the screen 3 times, only to hear the pilot on TS say he was leaving his chopper at the AO"

 

While operating as the sole pilot (since we only run 1 helo unless crowded), should the pilot who left the Helo at the AO have returned to ferry more players? If so, should the pilot be removed from the list for a period of time?

 

We are currently giving it to everyone who is on TS, and who wants it. Given a little time, we'll most-likely be revoking the privelages for some once we get a concrete system in place. 90% of players are responsible with the assets, so we shouldn't be revoking much. My last post wasn't as much a rant as a way of keeping things in check.

[SM_Fish]

The restrictions were put in place to try and alleviate the problem with asshats coming in, taking the chopper/MHQ off to who knows where, and leaving them. It is an effort to lighten the load admins must carry, as they are usually forced to sit in base, baby-sitting the children that frequent public servers.

 

Most, if not all, TS regulars should have chopper/MHQ rights.

 

Quite honestly if someone throws a tantrum and leaves because they can't fly the chopper or drive the MHQ, then good riddance. It's not like it takes much effort to join and be active on teamspeak.

 

A big +1

[T_1]

I will, and have already temporarily revoked one persons permissions for "pissing" about with choppers, and will do so again if I see conduct which I feel is inappropriate for the server.

 

Please remember that Air assets are there to support the players on the ground, not for as Stang would say "shining your a**".

 

 

[AJsarge]

I never even realized that this was split off into a different topic. I was talking about the chopper/MHQ access, and no offense taken to whoever commented on my gun control simile.

 

I would like to see the idea continued into re-including heavy air assets (A-10, AV-8, AH-1) when we start the ACE program.

[Cylawyer~SPARTA~]

...but I like shining my ass...

[AlarmedBread]

I like what you guys are doing and think it will make the pub server a better place to play for all of us. Maybe a little blurb on TS about pilot permissions would alleviate questions. The only thing I've seen is a few people whine and complain on TS that they couldn't fly a fixed wing. Much better than getting constant 'flybys' while youre in the AO as a pilot does barrel rolls and tires to fly through the gap in grain towers in Chernogosk...

[Tholozor]

Personally my take on ground attack aircraft is to only use it if there's something that the ground forces don't have the means of taking it out themselves that present a serious threat to them. Or if they want a show. In my experience the overall reaction of seeing either a group of enemies or significant armor disintegrate in a fireball, or a maelstrom of depleted uranium is one of positive feedback.

[T_1]

And therein lies the problem Tholozor.

 

There is generally enough AT in an AO to deal with double the amount of armour in the game, so there is very little that Air Assets can do that a group of ground pounders, even a disorganised one, can only deal with.

 

In general I like the idea of CAS, and I tried to use it last night on TACDOM, but it is difficult to co ordinate. By the time I got the CAS ready, the teams had neutralised the threat and had moved on.

 

The other issue is survivability, too many people take CAS into the AO and then try and clear the whole AO of armour. Some manage this, however in my experience, the CAS (particularly the cobra) didn't survive very long due to concentrated AA fire.

 

I still don't understand why people want to use Air assets in the Domination server, when the AirDom server is available.

 

I guess you pilot types have a need to show off ;)

[Zeno~SPARTA~]

Air assets incessantly buzzing the AO rob those on the ground of their ears.

 

Sparta likes to play in a deliberate and coordinated manner where possible. We tend to care more about the number of deaths than the number of kills or the speed of the AO take down. In the time it takes to organise the evac from the old AO to the the new one a brace of A10s or Cobras will have demolished the target leaving nothing but clean up for those on the ground. This is of no interest to many of us on the ground.

 

There are several pilots who can singlehandedly take down most of a town in A10s or Cobras. I have seen players do the same with the a strategically placed M119 artillery piece. Because the game allows them to have effectively infinite ammunition (due to the short rearm time) they completely unbalance the game. If we can increase the rearm time significantly they may become a viable option again.

 

Now I do like CAP and am trying to configure an AV8B to only carry sidewinders, by replacing the six hardpoints for dumb bombs with six or twelve sidewinders. The AOs have more enemy air than before and I like the idea of being able to call for help getting rid of them. But there is no amount of armour that 20 players cant deal with. if you know how to use your back pack you will have six smaw rockets each (that would be 120), apart from some of Kals wilder counter attacks, that is more than enough to deal with the threat posed in the AO. I train to hit targets out to 1000 metres which is almost standoff range. If we use the ammo drops intelligently we can even defend against air attack pretty quickly.

 

I play this game for the challenge of beating the AO with infantry, if the AO is systematically beaten by air assets, there is no challenge and I would lose my interest in playing.

 

Our hope is not and never was to become the most popular server, it was always to attract like minded gamers. Anything else is gravy.

[Tholozor]

Warning: Wall-of-text approaching, I apologize!

 

I still don't understand why people want to use Air assets in the Domination server, when the AirDom server is available.

 

Well the problem with the AirDom server (in my mind) is that people join it solely for the purpose of flying aircraft. However, since everyone is there for air assets, nobody is on the ground, therefore there is nobody to support. All you can really do is go head-to-head with enemy air, which they generally outnumber you, or attack ground targets that aren't really threatening anyone. At lot of pilots, myself included, fly aircraft for support roles, not offensive missions.

 

Air assets incessantly buzzing the AO rob those on the ground of their ears

 

Also to consider is the inherent scarcity of air assets on the servers themselves, both Public and TacDom. Most combat aircraft are gained by way of the side mission, which, in a lot of cases, there is no team to complete them (or they are placed in-game ahead of time). Therefore, while there are those uber-pilots out there that can solo an AO, there is little probability that they will even get the possibility to fly at all. I agree with you Zeno that a lot of pilots fly way too low with jets. I like to operate at least over 1000m to preserve everyone's hearing.

 

Consider this: The time is takes infantry to take out enemy armor is generally very short. However, depending on the weapon (most everyone uses the SMAW anyway), and the range to the target, there is a lower guarantee of a direct hit-kill. Aircraft, on the opposite end of the spectrum, take much more time to engage enemy armor, but is generally a one-hit-kill.

 

I'm not trying to suggest that the restrictions on aircraft get lifted, in fact they should be stricter than ever. Personally I feel that the only unrestricted aircraft should be the ones used for CAP. I would suggest, however, that any aircraft with the intent to be used for CAS should adhere to a strict ruleset like this, for any server other than AirDom:

 

- A ground unit must request the airstrike

- The ground unit must be in possession of a laser designator (limitation on if airstrikes can be requested)

- The target must either be a significant infantry force clustered together, only heavy armor, D-30 positions, or secondary objective (limitation on which targets the aircraft will be allowed to engage)

- The target must be out of optimal range of any AT weapon in the ground force (this will limit the aircraft use even further, considering usually at least one soldier carries the Javelin. This is to help reduce the use of ammunition, which would be more useful on TacDom, and large infantry clusters at extreme ranges can be tough to hit, even with precision rifles)

- The pilot can only perform as many independant strikes that the ground unit/mission commander/etc. will allow

- The aircraft may only perform CAP on the way to the AO, or on the way out after confirming ordinance delivery.

- The pilot must wait at the base (on runway or holding pattern) at all times when not on mission

- No fly-overs on new AOs, even if requested.

 

Generally the first and second rule would be the most limiting factor in target selection. D-30 batteries would probably be the prime target at any AO. They're generally engaged at closer ranges to eliminate the gunners, and if they're at long range, they're usually are firing at you, or don't you're there yet (but probably soon will).

 

I play this game for the challenge of beating the AO with infantry, if the AO is systematically beaten by air assets, there is no challenge and I would lose my interest in playing.

 

Yea, I understand that. But if there was a strictly enforced ruleset like this, aircraft would only be used when called for, and what they're called for, preventing a 'systematic beatdown' by the air assets (that's why there's the list of approved vehicle operators, ones who know not to go Rambo). Something else you could consider adding to the ruleset would be that aircraft can only be called in by a FAC. Therefore someone will have to take that role purposefully with the intent to offer air support to ground forces. However he would probably have to be limited to only contacting the pilot and providing the laser target. Let the infantry force decide if they want it or not.

 

Once again, sorry for the wall-of-text. I'm just trying to convey my point that I believe aircraft should be used, but in very specific situations, and only if anyone even wants it to be used. Perhaps there would be something like this in the Sparta Certified Pilot Class?

Edited December 5, 2009 by Tholozor

[Zeno~SPARTA~]

I need to consider what you have said, but my first thought is that we are trying to reduce the admin burden. Since the inception of the approved flying list (thanks MH6), my fellow game moderators and I can spend more time gaming.

 

The number of hours I spend on the server has gone down, but the amount of quality playing time has gone up.

 

Dont worry about the long post you have presented well reasoned arguments.

 

 

[KalXen~SPARTA~]

It is technically doable to have an object (such as a radio or laser designator in inventory) that could be used by a ground infantry near the AO or base to lock/unlock the 'request for support' concept and control whether air assets could take off. This along with either timers, or triggers such as landing at the jet service station, could stop the air assets from continuing assault until requested again. This could mimic the concept of someone on the ground requesting air support and allowing air support to attack for a window of time.

 

But I'm not rushing to write this - I'd rather focus on the ambient system or the next generation beyond Dom.

[Cylawyer~SPARTA~]

Discussions like these are what drive our server quality up. Well thought out and reasoned discussions result in modifications (I am worthless here, but luckily we have some talent in our midst) that improve the quality of play for all. A pendulum swings from one extreme to the other, but in time even pendulums find a center of gravity and stop moving, until pushed again. Our server will find it's center of gravity in time, until the next mod that is attractive enough to attempt to have integrated into our system.

 

Excellent job to the hardworking admins, moderators and content developers within SPARTA and the extended Spartan community! Keep up the good work!