New "Improved" Air Domination Server

[Stang~SPARTA~]

Hi Guys,

 

Zeno has asked me to either "Refresh or Re-think" completely, the Air Domination Server, thus providing propeller heads like me, a more enjoyable place to get in some serious aviating.

 

I am in the beginning stages of collecting ideas and thoughts, that will ultimately go into the new Air Dom Server. If you have some good ideas and or would like to help, please let me know.

 

My goal with this is a hefty one. I would like to create a server environment that is not entirely aviation related, but aviation as whole, plays a "key" and huge role in the overall battles and outcome. This will require some deep thought and good ideas to be implemented BUT we have to limit it to things that we "can do". (no we're not re-writing the source code to include X-Wing battles on Hoth)

 

Also too, I do not want to make this into a "Quake" style environment where everyone jumps into an air vehicle and shoots at everything in sight. I want to have BLUE Forces and OPPOSING Forces, Missions, Assignments, Task, Side Missions, etc etc. When you join, you should be in the middle of a battle that has specific mission goals and allows you to contribute to those goals for the battle to be won or lost. We may even allow for some of the community based mods, if they are stable, enjoyable and add to the "playability" of the server as a whole.

 

If you would like to be involved and help, I would love the company.

 

Please let me know your thoughts and ideas.

Edited December 28, 2009 by Stang~SPARTA~

[Rooster]

Is there any way to add controllable units to air domination? Like squads and such so we can do taxi service? If so then having some FAC units on the ground would provide more targets, etc.

 

Right now air dom is just a bunch of people zooming around in f35's... Not a whole lot of fun.

 

It is fun doing tank air drops near the AO though. If we could get more manned tanks on the map that would be cool. The other night I was dropping tank crews from the c130, it was cool but there are only a few crews. So after like four drops I had nothing else to really do from an air support perspective... besides perfect my landing approach and glide slope.

 

Rooster

Edited December 29, 2009 by Rooster

[peter~SPARTA~]

I like to help.

I dont know what limitations and possibilities are. If you could trow me some reading materials about what can be done and what cannot, that would be very hepful.

Are we limited to current size of Bigdom map? This one is not so size friendly for fix wings.

Can some things be fixed, like working laser marker in huey? Various load for fixed and rotor?

[AJsarge]

-Big AOs

-More AO AA

-More AO armor

-Less AO Infantry/static positions

-No camps/radio towers/etc.

-a vehicle selection setup (go to a crate next to a hangar for aircraft, select, and *poof*)

-simplified start (no more massive airplane spam, starts around 0700)

-AI-controlled invincible airfield defenses (AA soldier patrols, avengers, and stinger pods on buildings)

-Updated Aircraft selection (AH-64, no more russian aircraft)

-Interactive missions

--Airdrop - Take a tank crew to the AO. They help until they either die, or the AO finishes, where they despawn

--Parajump - same as above, but between 2-3 squads of infantry

--CAP - Enemy fighters/Helos are inbound to the AO, stop them

--SEAD - Enemy has an AA position situated on a hill. Take it out (Tunguskas, or Shilkas and ZU-23 Urals)

--Transport - (See parajump) Take a friendly squad to a (randomly marked, open, spot) landing zone near the AO. They are not in your group, but follow you into your helo/vehicle until within 10 meters of the AO (LZ marked by a small FOB. Repair/Refuel available once landing)

-Single-person groups. (instead of being seperated into 4-5 squads like now)

-AI recruiting (pilots, crewmen, squad/team leaders, riflemen, etc.)

-1/2 slots are pilots, 1/4 are crewmen, rest are Spec Ops/Arty Officers (they are in one squad, BTW, except Arty)

-No more "Elite" pilots flying around (bugged anyways?)

-Bases at Krasno & Balota Airstrips for refuel/repair/rearm (teleport to/from available)

-MLRS Arty Base (Run by AI, fire missions can be called by players)

-Be able to recover enemy vehicles with the wreck chopper. All other US assets and all dead bodies get cleaned up.

 

Would I do all this if I knew how? Yes. Saying that, do I actually know how? Sadly, no.

 

But at least clean the mission up, make it more fun to play, and easier on some people's systems. Some of the "features" just seem tacked-on to me.

 

OK, and looking back at what you said you want to do with Air Dom...

 

Switch it from a bunch of completeable AOs to just one large area using the Ambient Combat Module within a certain zone. US, Russian, CDF, Chedaki, and NAPA (enemies to all/friendly to none) forces within just this zone. Make it very large (Centered around Guglovo, radius out to between Kabanino and the Sobors. Instead of the side missions we have now, use the ideas from above to help "influence" the battle (which will never end, BTW. The server will just restart/eventually crash due to so many wrecks and other stuff caused by griefers). Any unit dropped into the AO will stay and "seek and destroy" their mission zone (where you're supposed to drop them off at for side missions) unless either killed or a time limit is reached (where they then get despawned). This allows players a chance to do different "sorties" into the AO, instead of just going in purely to kill stuff. Add in a few AA encampments (total of 3? out of a possible 5-7 active at one time, if all the AA units from one gets destroyed, another position pops up in another slot. Give players something to think about.) and static bases (destroyed/respawn just like AA positions) for them to target with gunship raids/SEAD too.

 

Add a sort of construction interface (player has to plant a flagpole at a point, can spawn at their own, teleport to all available. Attached to the in-game character. So the Alpha Squad Leader can plant a flag, but if the person controlling ASL disconnects and someone else uses that slot, they have to pull the flag to move the base. Limited to maybe 20 items per slot ( sandbag walls count as 0.25 items) to limit lag/exploiting. See the Cherno Life hideout construction setup) for players to set up bases and FARPS wherever they want.

 

And with the allowance of new mods being possible, I'd say you REALLY need the GLT F-16 mod (the grey version with a custom Sparta tailfin marking if anybody in SPARTA knows their photoshop?) with only one skin set available (there's USAF, USAF Grey, EU, and Black skin sets. CAP/CAS/Bombs/GuidedMissiles/Multirole variants of each skin are available too) if this is going to be an AirDom server.

 

At least it's not a full source code rewrite...

Edited December 29, 2009 by AJsarge

[Zeno~SPARTA~]

The objective of this server has always been to give the air jockies the thrill they are seeking so that they dont come into the main public server and dominating it with the tastier attack vehicles.

 

I know that the air dom server has been unfulfilling because the pilots want to interact with ground troops.

 

Hopefully this can be simulated with AI or by a few players who particularly want to work from the ground with the aircraft.

 

keep the ideas coming

 

Cheers

Z

[andrewman~SPARTA~]

whatever you have done is attracting a lot of players - well done

[Zeno~SPARTA~]

LOL, they havent done anything yet, this is still StrongHarms work from about 4 months ago.

[T_1]

I know that the air dom server has been unfulfilling because the pilots want to interact with ground troops.

 

Maybe if the "Pilots" had listened to the ground troops, rather than doing their own thing, we wouldn't need a separate Air Dom Server.

 

However this adds no positive points to the debate ..

 

I would like to start using Air Assets more often for CAS, however, I'm tempered by the ability of one aircraft to clear an AO.

 

How about "very" limited time in the AO, then revert to CAP.

 

[Durka-Durka~SPARTA~]

The objective of this server has always been to give the air jockies the thrill they are seeking so that they dont come into the main public server and dominating it with the tastier attack vehicles.

 

Just repeating for effect.

 

[Stang~SPARTA~]

Guys,

 

Right now, I am just gathering ideas and trying to figure out what is do-able and what is not. I agree with Zeno here, what has been missing is interaction with the ground pounders in a meaningful way, that allows an environment where "both" have to work together to accomplish a mission.

 

We can easily add "MODS" and additional AI everywhere to give us "more" to shoot at but this is not the goal. We do not want this to become a "Quake" style frag-fest with every one shooting wildly at everything. To do this right, I'm not so sure we can only use BLUE Forces and AI. I am starting to think that there needs to be a human controlled OP Forces with AI help.

 

Two realistic "high level" ideas are:

 

Attack

Take &

Defend

 

or

 

Search &

Destroy

 

While there are a "myriad" of specific mission types that go along with either of these (CAP, CAS, SEAD, DEAD, FAC, TAC, SUPPORT, TRANSPORT, MEDIVAC, RECON, BLA, BLA, BLA, etc, etc, etc, etc); these are simply the "high level" goals for the overall mission structure and planning. Once we establish exactly what it is we want as mission goals, then we can get started on building the specific mission types and ancillary items to go along with them like; (Side Missions, Para-drops, Flagpoles, etc)

 

The first one (Attack, Take & Defend), seems to imply that BLU Forces would start as far outside / away as possible; like from a Carrier or another island, (if that's even possible). They would fight their way into a heavily defended AO "with very limited assets" (both Air and Ground, like in real life), take that AO, then get additional assets and finally have to defend it successfully against major attacks for a period of time...all the while accomplishing other smaller goals like side missions including: resupply, transport, CAP, CAS, Recon, etc, etc)

 

The second one (Search & Destroy) seems to imply that BLU Forces would have to "hunt down" OP Forces in an ever changing or "mobile AO (if that's possible). Similar to finding a convoy and destroying it as it moves through the map and what would be heavily defended territories. This opens the door to having BLU Forces split up on many different fronts, thus providing many different mission types.

 

Both of these are just working ideas that give us the basics for designing overall campaigns with "winnable attributes". As these fully develop then we can decide what specifics are needed and what "assets" (MOD's), we may consider adding to achieve the overall mission goals.

 

If we make the highest level rules to include, that Ground and Air forces will have to work together to accomplish all the task at hand to be successful, it will draw both player types and thus make for a more enjoyable experience for all. This can simply be done with using the idea of "Combined Forces". For example "Special Forces" working closely with "specific" Air Assets to achieve overall mission goals for success. This could lead to several "SEAL Teams" (DELTA, RECON, RANGER, etc, etc), operating in several small AO simultaneously. Each team having specific assets for their mission type (Recon, Demolition, Interdiction, S&D, etc)

 

I really think that when we get this figured out and worked out, it will make for a much more enjoyable experience on the Air DOM server all together.

 

Please let me know what think and what your ideas are.

 

Thanks for all the help Guys

Edited December 29, 2009 by Stang~SPARTA~

[Stang~SPARTA~]

Great idea T1,

 

I am thinking the Air Assets will be limited in more than one way. Aircraft may have limited amounts of ammunition like only 2 dumb bombs (MK 82's) and 250 rounds of Mike Mike. This would help keep them from obliterating a whole AO in a single pass. Secondly, the Air Assets them-selfs would need to be limited as well (we don't need 25 F-16's patrolling the map).

 

If we use a diverse "specific" set of Air Assets then there should be plenty of Aircraft for people to fly. You may not always be able to get the exact aircraft you want but thats OK too. Limiting pilots time in a certain aircraft models (say 30 minutes) may be something else that is an option and would allow everyone to fly everything sooner or later.

 

Another idea may be, to assign the aircraft to a "Ground Team". This way each ground team would have specif air assets assigned to them. As that Ground Team achieves specif goals, they get additional Air Assets (similar to what we do today). If we locked the aircraft to a specif team and gave the team leader the ability to "remove" a "non-team player" member from their Team, this would entice the Air Jockies to work together with with a ground team members.

 

The more I think about this, the more I feel that one of the major items needing to be addressed, is Aircraft Numbers & Weapons. a Fully loaded F-16 can completely destroy most every target on an AO in several passes...not to mention what many F-16's can do. If we limited first the number of F-16's (for example), their Fuel and Weapons, this would contribute greatly to how they are used.

 

Loading up an F-16 for CAP means it only needs nothing more than Limited Fuel, 2 Sidewinders and limited 20MM. This would ensure that it could loiter for a very limited time before having to RTB. The same is true for CAS missions, 2 hellfire / maverick missiles and a small amount of 20mm along with a "properly" heavily defended AO and all of a sudden you either have a very surgical strike or a VDP (very dead pilot), very quickly.

 

Another idea may be to setup a "Skill Limit" for Pilots. If you're killed 3 times in the same aircraft type, over a certain period, then you're locked out of that type for a time period. This would promote people getting better in an aircraft type, which would mean actually working with ground troops (Gasp ) and thus making it more enjoyable for all.

 

Thoughts?

 

Maybe if the "Pilots" had listened to the ground troops, rather than doing their own thing, we wouldn't need a separate Air Dom Server.

 

However this adds no positive points to the debate ..

 

I would like to start using Air Assets more often for CAS, however, I'm tempered by the ability of one aircraft to clear an AO.

 

How about "very" limited time in the AO, then revert to CAP.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Stang~SPARTA~

[T_1]

I'd be quite happy for the plane to get blown up if it loitered in the AO more than the time it takes to drop the bombs/strafe.

 

A very short exposure time would mean good team work between the infantry and the pilots would be essential.

 

Edit - I just thought of something, could the FAC have an action to give the green light to dropping bombs? Say there was a toggle option which permitted pilots to drop bombs in the AO, if the FAC had'nt cleared the bombs then the pilots would be unable to drop anything.

 

Just a thought.

Edited December 29, 2009 by T1~SPARTA~

[KalXen~SPARTA~]

I'm not certain that this is the right direction for this map. Air Dom was made to give a playground to people who ONLY wanted to fly. It was not meant to seperate our ground pounding player base into two servers. I think a simple cleanup of the main base to remove all the intro clutter would suffice.

[Stang~SPARTA~]

Kal,

 

We already know that having a bunch of aircraft available to simply fly around is not working...intro or not. For pilots to feel a part of the action, they need to be involved in "something" with actual mission goals. Otherwise we simply have a prettier version of what we have now, that nobody uses.

 

 

I'm not certain that this is the right direction for this map. Air Dom was made to give a playground to people who ONLY wanted to fly. It was not meant to seperate our ground pounding player base into two servers. I think a simple cleanup of the main base to remove all the intro clutter would suffice.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Stang~SPARTA~

[Durka-Durka~SPARTA~]

Kal,

 

We already know that having a bunch of aircraft available to simply fly around is not working...intro or not. For pilots to feel a part of the action, they need to be involved in "something" with actual mission goals. Otherwise we simple have a prettier version of what we have now, that nobody uses.

 

 

For the past 3 months or so, people have been coming into our servers clamouring over the air vehicles we provided, which included air transport, fixed-wing/rotary-wing attack. It got to the point to where 1/2 people would fly into an AO and kill everything before the 20+ ground pounders could get there. It eventually devolved into a race from one AO to the other, not to mention the maturity level dipped well below what it should've been. Even now, we have a rift between the folks who want to play with toys, and those who want to play together. We reduced the air assets when we noticed people racing towards aircraft as soon as they spawned, calling "dibbs" on vehicles, ect. You can imagine how tedious it was for a group who stresses teamwork and togetherness above all.

 

The AirDom was made for those "air supporters only" people who wanted to fly around and blow stuff up. It was a very simple idea trying to please two sets of people. It was not meant as a replacement for our regular server in any shape/form, which is what I'm starting to see now. Nor was it made to be running at even half-capacity.

 

Some suggestions going forward:

1. Why not make every class into a pilot class, except for a 4-slot SF team? A compromise between both worlds.

2. Why not edit the AirDom server to be TvT, and you guys can go against each other air-to-air?

[Stang~SPARTA~]

Please understand...I'm not suggesting we replace anything with anything. I like the other DOM servers just the way they are now. Each provides a specific environment where users work to accomplish certain task.

 

My only intention here is put something on the Air Dom server that is actually fun. Right now there are no certain task and it's very buggy and prone to crashing. Just enabling TvT would do nothing more than make it a Frag Fest for Air to Air. No one wanting to fly Close Air Support or other aircraft, would have anything to do...much like it is now.

 

Secondly...who is on the Air Dom server anyway? Every time I log in it either crashes me back out to desktop or if I'm lucky, there's one other person on it, who is doing nothing more than wondering what its for.

 

If you want nothing more than to remove the intro Zeno made and fix the bugs, you sure don't need my help for that.

 

If your worried that a Combined Arms server with Air and Ground assets might take people away from the the other servers...I don't know what to tell you then. Forget this idea I guess. Maybe finding the "right" way to implement Air and Ground force together is the key...no matter what server its on. Currently on Big Dom Air Transport is a key asset and it works well. In the mission it runs you really don't need any other Air Assets. In a different mission set, you would.

 

Can it be made where its not a Admins nightmare, frag-fest team killing shootem-up or simply boring as hell...I don't know but I thought that's what this was all about...guess I was mistaken.

 

Zeno...we need some guidance here please.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Stang~SPARTA~

[Zeno~SPARTA~]

At this stage Stang is gathering ideas to formulate the basis for his project. We should not impose limits other than the focus be aircraft based.

[adder360~SPARTA~]

flying around locking targets and blowing shit up on your own is very boring and you can sit on your own on the editor and do that your self if thats what you want to do, the fun i found from playing any sort of air is doing stuff with the guys on the ground, them lighting up a target and you flying in and blowing it up for them and then waiting for the next target, a lot like the arty and mortirs are used for in how we play now,

 

limiting the fuel and amo that the fixed wings carry would go a long way to making the air work more with the ground, but also just being able to use laser guided bombs to stop people for jumping in and knocking every thing out before the guys on the ground get there, also recon was a big thing that the aircrafted used to get used for when i played arma 1 doing a fly by and just seeing what was there to gain intel.

 

i donno if its posible but marking places for air strikes with a UV strobe or soming would be a cool way to say mark a radio tower and then get some one to bomb it.

 

Im a big fan of being able to use air assests and all the stuff made avable, and kinda dont like the school of thorght that people that like to fly aircraft cant get along with those that like to run about

[KalXen~SPARTA~]

Im a big fan of being able to use air assests and all the stuff made avable, and kinda dont like the school of thorght that people that like to fly aircraft cant get along with those that like to run about

 

I'm all for this statement. I want to find a way to keep those that can fly and provide support to the ground troops in the main public server to ensure the total #'s of players stays higher. It was only because of the rambo pilots we had to seperate the maps so drastically. Unfortunately, those rambos left a very sour taste to many that has been hard to convince anyone to have airplanes. And now with BigDom we have tried to slowly re-add some air assets and its working well - we don't want to slide from that path of finding the middle ground there. We have much more potential to go. MH6 put in a TON of work to get the fly list working, something that doesn't exist on any other server, and it is barely used to its potential.

 

I believe that with the proper controls BigDom can be easily made so that we can find a middle ground for the air jocks and the ground pounders. We have many controls for this - the fly list, the available assets, ability to limit ammo, etc. As LGB planes are already in the list for side mission wins, we could put them on the tarmac for people to fly from start. I honestly find it more of a challenge for 2 guys with a plane and a Laser to take out a tank than a single guy that can infinitely respawn with 6 SMAWs.

 

I have 0 concern with an air server being focused on air and having fun with new targets, etc. I think thats awesome honestly for those guys and I enjoy flying from time to time. Make it shine in an are that doesn't exist - let it be air focused with gloves off, a billion targets, and a driving interactive storyline. We don't need two of the same map.

[Zeno~SPARTA~]

Opfor Bigdom is a predominatly land based mission with some air support.

 

AirDom will be a predominatly (80%-100%) air based misisons with some (or even just AI) ground support

 

I dont see this as conflicting, if anyone is still concerned about this lets chat about it on TS. I sense heckles rising unneccesarily.

 

Cheers

Z

[AJsarge]

So the idea that people are asking for (without creating a second main server) is to keep the AirDom server a playground for the pilots, and give them more to do, without relying on people on the ground. But, as Adder said, it needs to be more than just blowing stuff up. Use some of the base Domination (pulled from the most current Sparta Bigdom) scripts to create a starting point. From there, a few things need to be addressed.

 

- Things to do

- Available Assets

- Aircraft-soldier interactions.

- Available player slots

 

We get those solved, we get the input of the pilots, and we can work on fixing bugs and adding mods once we have an idea of what exactly the server should be like. This isn't a second full server. It's a playground to burn off some steam. We can use experience from the AirDom server to then start adding assets back into the main server.

 

Don't treat it like another US Domination server. Whatever we do here won't affect the numbers and experience there.

[custard~SPARTA~]

What Zeno said and airdom as is had 20 guys in this morning there was just me n Andrewman in Bigdom.

 

I am personally not interested in being able to fly but lots of ppl are, air dom has given them somewhere better than the mission editor to practice fair one. If flyers MP enjoyment/experience can be improved by tweaking the current airdom then excellent.

 

What follows is

 

I would appreciate any ideas to improve flying in the land based game we play and the only thing I could think of is only two air to ground munitions and maybe a 20 min delay for rearming those munitions. As for CAP I welcome as much as possible, getting shot down on insert to AO suks balls but this duty is so boring for the pilot.

[Stang~SPARTA~]

Scratch the last post

 

Air Dom is now back with all the aircraft

Edited December 29, 2009 by Stang~SPARTA~

[peter~SPARTA~]

What Zeno said and airdom as is had 20 guys in this morning there was just me n Andrewman in Bigdom.

 

Is Bigdom still set to veteran mode?

 

Things that make BigDom so great was set of people who like rules set by Sparta and policing them by themselves even if admin is not around. Other thing is communication, people on TS can work well together and respect each others. With plane for everyone that would be not possible.

If you like to create great AirDom same way rules have to be enforced, that's mean its not for everyone.

Also i don't see separation between ground and air elements possible.They need each others.

You cannot laze target from air, you need ground troops to do that.

 

Without troops on the ground all you can do is hunt enemy air and vehicles running around map with hydras, hellfire or mavericks. Use dummy bombs for leveling targets with no precision at all.

 

 

[KalXen~SPARTA~]

BigDom was Veteran mode this morning, Custard said it is back to regular.