Colt AR-15

[Zeno~SPARTA~]

I went to a shooting range today and shoot 30 rounds from the Colt AR-15, which I guess is the civilian version of the M16.

 

I shot at 25 and 50 metres. We are only allowed single shot on this range.

 

The most striking thing is the sound of the spring over the sound of the shot, its really weird.

 

The recoil is more than on the SIG 552 commando (which is a similar calibre - 5.6mm) that I shot last year, but still not bad. My eyesight is not suited to iron sights (which are blurred if I focus on the target), but I still did ok when I was braced, less well free standing. The rifle shot a bit low, which surprised me.

 

This shooting range also has an AK74, M1 Carbine and a short barrel version of 7.5mm (I am not sure of the exact calibre I know its not 7.62) Sig assault rifle, the long version of which looks similar to a G3. So I will be trying them out on my next visit.

 

There was a guy shooting a G36 beside me, at 50 metres he shredded the head of the target. The only problem is the pressure of the shots made me jump a bit so I had to wait for him to finish before I took my shots. I wouldnt make a good soldier if I have to wait for the shooting to stop before I shoot, lol.

 

Its great to be able to go to a range and rent this gear.

 

I managed this a few times in the US, shooting an Uzi and a Thompson (the latter occasionally wouldnt stop shooting, lol) but no assualt rifles.

 

The swiss army do not use rifle calibres of Nato or eastern block countries so that their ammunition cannot be used by those armies.

 

 

 

 

[Xross]

I was hoping to talk to you a bit about this. Sounds like a fun day.

 

That spring sound (recoil spring in the stock not the main spring) I've been told is so perceptible because it's coupling through the facial bones due to the cheek weld so is directly passing to the auditory stuff in your head (There are headphones based on this principle). The sound of the shot on the other hand (from the rifle you're firing) is mitigated significantly by the 60+ db reduction offered by the most basic hearing protection because that sound is not directly coupled to your head bones but reaches the auditory center accoustically.

 

The pressure from a shooter adjacent to you can be the most 'distracting' as the angle from that bore to you is much less than to you from your own bore. As an aside this 'over pressure' area is simulated in the A.C.E. mod and standing too close to say a tank firing can kill you (backblast is modelled as well).

 

Actually you should focus on the front sight. This is a vastly documented subject so I won't bore you with my drivel about it. I'll just add that this is why there is a 'zoom' on the right mouse button in sims like arma. Since the human eye can shift focal lengths and therefore depths of field this 'zoom' is allowed as a way to 'focus' in more on what your looking at. Scanning an arc your eye would setup for one focal length and when a threat is detected the eye muscles allow a more 'fixated' and heightened view of that perceived threat. I've been away from this for a while now but this is reasonably close so excuse my fading memories and less than technical explanation.

 

Glad you had a good time....Are distances beyond 50 yards available? I think the battle zero of an M-16 is 300 yds...don't recall exactly but 50 yds is a good standing familiarization distance and fun. More stable positions and holds are necessary at increasing ranges for obvious reasons. The best competetive shooters have jackets with pulse pads built in to help keep the rifle from twitching so much on each heartbeat...and then they fire in between beats....no kidding that's the stuff you need for extended range shooting proficiency.

 

 

Thanks for sharing your experience.

[MedicSN6]

Actually, what X said was I was going to say. Which was about focusing on the front sight. He said it right, no need for me to repeat it. The U.S. Army zero's at 25 yards and then qualifies out to 300 yards. There are only three targets at 300 yards though, most dont shot at them. This is because they will have three extra rounds in case they miss a closer target and want and extra round on it.

 

Other than that, I am glad you had a great time and I hope you get to go more often.

 

On a different note, my new rifle, after having waited for months because of high demand and back order parts, is supposedly shipping tomorrow, Monday. I will take pictures and post them here once I get it.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Medic~SPARTA~

[Athlon64~SPARTA~]

A good shooter keeps his cheek off of the stock, On the larger big bore rifles I perfer, you will only do that once, due to it will feel like your face will be streched longer on one side then the outher, and your wiskers will be removed LOL. True with the weatherby 300 mag or the H&H 358 magnum, on the 45-70, 45-82, better keep your thumb down as well it might break the nose when the trigger is pulled.

[Durka-Durka~SPARTA~]

It's good to know they at least have ranges in Britian. I'd love to shoot an SA80 one of these days.

 

In the US Army, 300m is about the maximum people try to accurately shoot. The Marines go out a little bit further I think. That's all iron sights, though.

 

Of course, these are nothing compared to a good grenade by your side

[Elvis~SPARTA~]

http://www.youtube.com/user/VikingTactics

[Xross]

Athlon you ol' Magnum lover...lol that's a whole other ball game..Imagine shooting a .50 BMG without a serious muzzle brake.

 

You might appreciate this.....I had a two barrel American Derringer for a while (a very short while) that was chambered for .45 Colt/.410 in one barrel and 45-70 Govt in the other. Tiny little grips , short barrels and a super stiff trigger (no safety or trigger guard...single action made to fit in your pants pocket). I took this thing to the range with a box of each caliber and started warming up with my .44 Mag. Moved from that to the the Derringer and the .45 Colt/.410 stuff and it was reasonably manageable. My buddy was there as well and after I was good and loosened up I took one of those 45-70 Govt rounds and slid it in the barrel wondering if it was going to stick out the other end. Well short story long I touched it off and it felt like my hand exploded. My buddy swore up and down that the top of my hand came all the way back to my forearm from the incredibly violent recoil. The vibrations from that shot was something like I've never experienced before or since. I damn near dropped the thing or rather it damn near blew out of my hand..those grips barely let you get a finger and a half on them.

 

After I took inventory and was fairly sure all my important parts were still attached I took the spent round out and slid it into the box with the other fresh ones. Fool me once shame on you but twice....no freakin' way. I traded that thing before the sun set even threw in a fresh box of 45-70 less ONE...lol

 

Matter of fact here it is....American Derringer M-4 'Alaskan Survival Model' Exactly the one I had: (Picture from net..for scale that's a 2 1/2" .410 round next to the 45-70 Govt.)

 

 

Oh the good ol' days.

 

 

You posted while I was looking for a pic Elvis...very nice drill!

[evilducky]

Ar-15? This is mine. I just bought a new stock for it and will be in on Tuesday.

 

 

 

 

 

This is the stock I just got for it:

http://www.dharkon.com/images/Magpul%20-%20PRS%20Stock.jpg

[Zeno~SPARTA~]

A few clarifications

 

The range is in Switzerland. Although the swiss are neutral they still have military service and everyone can keep their assault rifle and pistol (I guess that if they are invaded every man is armed to defend the land). As far as I know the ranges in the UK must have all shut down (Except for police and military).

 

This range is indoors, so its great to be able to shoot at that distance.

 

Because its indoors there is a baffle of sorts between the shooters, but the pressure from the shots on an indoor range is obviously worse than outside.

 

I am confused about the focus, if I focus on the foresight the target will be a blur (bad enough at 50 metres but worse at 100 +. I was told that a younger eye switches focus between the foresight and the target so the mind sees both clearly, but my eyes cant do that any more. We also shot a pistol (another Sig) at 15 metres but I found my eyes got tired and the shots became sloppy, so we didnt do that for long. The Sig had a nicely weighted trigger but I find pistol shooting hard work compared to rifle shooting which is pure enjoyment.

 

If I lived here 20 years ago, I would have had my own arsenal of rifles, good job I didnt really.

 

The rifle should be called the Zebedi (an animated character on a spring) lol. But now I understand why the noise is dominant. But Athlon I didnt know that you shouldnt put your cheek on the stock, dont some sniper rifles have adjustable cheek plates.

 

Evil that rifle looks good, but it reminds me of the Knights Armament SR21.

 

This is the Colt AR-15 I shot

 

 

[Xross]

From respected source:

 

"*NOTE* The human eye can only focus on one thing at a time. You can not focus on the rear sight, front sight and the target at the same time. You should focus on the front sight. The back sight and target will still be visible they will just be blurred. The reason we do this is the front sight shows the path the bullet is going to follow."

 

CQB/Battlefield is different than shooting for extreme accuracy while not under duress. If you have the luxury of time then you can switch between the three focal planes to check alignment but the focus should always be on the front site when the round is sent.

 

This is my training and experience only and I generally shoot with both eyes open regardless of sights (there are exceptions). I also must have a cheek weld for any type of accuracy so I stick with 7.62 as my largest rifle caliber. Others are more advanced and current than I am so I'll defer to them for more detail. Athlon's right about the pain of big magnums..I usually have my upper cheek bone on or near the stock and with a heavy caliber that just flat out will ring your bell...must take some serious practice. Sniper platforms of higher calibers use muzzle brakes to help control them (look on the end of a .50 BMG or similar)

 

Medium Bore Brake/Suppressor example

 

.50 BMG brake example (this one is rearward as the rifle weight and proper hold/position reduces rise and you may need your shoulder for the next shot lol)

 

 

 

 

 

 

BTW are you right handed and right eye dominant (or vice versa)? A shooter has a quicker learning curve if they don't have mixed dominance traits like right handed/left eyed. If you're not sure just keep both eyes open and point to something as a reference. Now close one eye at a time. Notice how the image shifts from where you perceived you were pointing with one eye but not the other. The eye that doesn't shift is dominant and it's advised to shoot from that side (although mixed dominance shooters can excel).

 

Now that this is all about as clear as mud I'll leave it to the reigning authorities for clarification. I can do it just don't want to butcher the explanation causing more confusion.

 

Good luck and enjoy your shooting.

 

ps That pic looks like the original issue that didn't have the forward assist or brass deflector for those pesky lefties..lol. Generally the only difference you'll notice between the military and civilian versions (other than the custom options) is the extra position on the safety/mode selector for burst or full auto based on the model.

[evilducky]

Yeah, I wanted to type alittle more.. Basically I know that twang sound that the rifle makes and its kinda funny that that stands out more than the shot. Im kinda interested to see if that sound is still there when I get the new stock. X-wind, about the muzzle breaks, you can see mine doesnt have one. Do they have a minimal effect on a shot or would it be good to find a long barrel with one on it?

[Xross]

I doubt you'll need a brake for a 5.56 but depends on the intended application and rules of any competitions you may be planning on entering. Something like a brake could move you from one class to another where rifles are heavily modified. I would personally go as built and learn the fundamentals and work with skilled professionals. If at some future point you and they decide you need a brake then it can be added. Others are far more knowledgeable about this than me. Good luck and safe shooting.

 

 

edit: After looking again at those pics of your rifle the last thing I would recommend is hanging something off the end of that barrel. A cheap or poorly fitted brake/suppressor/port job can quickly destroy a rifle's accuracy. Again best of luck and safety first.

[Zeno~SPARTA~]

I am right handed and usually right eye dominant, although in some tests I was left eye dominant.

 

I used to be an archer (recurve not compound), and there its even more complicated. the string has to be touching the tip of the nose and the knot has to touch pursed lips, you look at the tip of the arrow to ensure that its at a fixed distance beyond the rest, then the target through the sight, all of this with a 40 lb draw weight, fighting the trembles (which I couldnt hold for too long).

 

 

Thanks for all the explications, i will try them out next time I go, which will sadly not be for a while.

 

[Athlon64~SPARTA~]

Well to clairify a little, the big bore stuff I like has greater amount of recoil and are useally bolt action and have alot more kick then the gas operated semi or auto action stuff. You don't want your cheek touching the stock due to it might get ripped off. But in the semiauto gas operated stuff thats not so important due to alot of the recoil us used up operating the action, so in that case its probley ok to let it touch. The secret to shooting is to shoot alot, hold the gun the same way every time, and take the time to sight it in and once the right ammo is found try an stay with that brand of ammo. It takes practice to get perfection.

 

Oh My god X wind, I wouldent shoot that thing one handed with a 45-70 in it- sucide! Kind of like that Desert Eagle 50 I had a chance to fire, the nuzzle blast from that thing would pound your chest standing 20 yards off to the side of it.

Edited July 27, 2009 by Athlon64~SPARTA~

[MedicSN6]

LOL, You guys are insane to shoot large bore handguns anyways. This will sound a bit Brady Campaign but I personally don't see much purpose in them. They are fun to shoot once, but in large, are very impractical. I will stick with my .45 ACP 1911 and be happy. I have also found that after having become quite proficient with my 1911, I can shoot anything smaller accurately and consistantly, without much practice. This is probably more of a result of practivng the fundamentals of shooting rather than having shot my 1911 frequently.

 

When it comes to cheek welds, it is very important that you be consistent in your placement. This is especially important with iron sights where you are looking for a size comparison. You want the front sight post, which is your focal point as X said, to be the same size in the rear apperature EVERY single time. This builds consistancy. A very good reference point for you to learn when shoot iron sights on an AR "M' style platform is your charging handle. Slightly touching the charging handle with your nose is a perfect distance for most people. The other reason you must make a good cheek weld is that the iron sights, especially those on an A2 model, are pretty low in comparison to the barrel. There is no real way to look through them without resting your cheek on the stock.

 

Make no mistake, iron sights are probably the most challenging sights to shoot through. Many factors, such as stance, sight picture, breathing, and trigger squeeze all take part in hitting your target. The U.S. Marines practice shooting out to 600 meters with iron sights. The Army qualifies out to 300 meters. It is very possible and you can become consistant if you practice. As an annecdote, I was shooting a while back at an open rifle range which is owned by the State of West Virginia. There were some guys there shooting ARs and an AK. One of the guy's Aimpoint died on him and switching the batteries didn't fix it, so he switched to iron sights. He admitted that he had never used the iron sights on the weapon relying soley on the aimpoint since he bought it. He couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with those iron sights.

Now, keeping in mind that he wasn't military or a LEO, this didn't really matter but for principle. The point is that he never really learned and incorporated the core fundamentals of shooting. I dare say that if he had, he would been shooting like a pro with those iron sights.

 

For more on the basics of the Fundamentals Check here: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/lib...2-9/c04.htm#4_5

Edited July 27, 2009 by Medic~SPARTA~

[Athlon64~SPARTA~]

Check that link Medic put up, great info.

[Durka-Durka~SPARTA~]

Our instructors in Basic Training used to fire their M-16s off the chin, then off the balls, just to show everyone not to be affraid of the kick. The spring is a little annoying, but I like it.

[Zeno~SPARTA~]

Of course it wont hurt if you have"balls of Steel".

[Grimwolf]

Sig makes some fine weapons, we recently switched from the venerable 9mm Berreta with the Sig P229 DAK .40 cal. For those who don't know the DAK is a Double Action Only (DAO) that allows you to keep pulling the trigger if a round miss fires the first time. Its show that about 60% of missfire is due to the pin not striking the primer hard enough. Anyways lets just say its nice in the military/law enforcement applications. And just to clarify for you the M1 carbine is a .223 cal/ 5.56mm (they are alot cheaper to reaload that my .30-06 rounds when you want to do rapid fire. I do enjoy shooting the AR-15 as well, with us we do zero in on targets at 25 yrds at the range. Wehn we do sight in though its on the "100 yrd" targets, you know the ones that they say simulate a target at 100 yrds.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Grimwolf

[Athlon64~SPARTA~]

Finely a fellow reloader!. I think they had to design that sig in the double action to fire that crappy soviet ammo that flooding in to the country, I use Speer, Hornaday, Hurqules, red dot, winchester. Lyman is the good stuff. RCBS dies suck, keep snapping off decaping pins. Alot of fireing pins are designed full floating, and if the primer isent good quality, no fire.

I used to get 90 rounds out of a pound of winchester 760 in 30-06 168gr spitzer boat tail national macth balanced slugs. No problem hitting servayer sticks at 100 yards.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Athlon64~SPARTA~

[MedicSN6]

So if I wanted to get in to reloading, what would the brands that I should start with and what will I need. I want to reload .223 and .45 ACP to begin with. Honestly I shoot a lot of .22LR but those rounds are pretty cheap even now. Athlon mentioned Lyman and that RCBS dies suck. So I will keep this in mind. I don't really have a budget for this at the moment because I am saving for my new rig, but if we are going to be playing ArmA2 for a while then i might just hold off on the upgrade to i7.

 

So what should I have for basic/beginner reloading as far as press, tumbler, scale, primer tube, etc. And are ther any good videos or books for instruction.

Also, as a reference, one of the security officers at the hospital is a retired Detective and CSI from the local Sheriff's Office. He had volunteered his time to help me learn. Plus he has FFLs for full auto weapons so that should be fun when the time comes.

[Xross]

An M1 carbine in 5.56mm? I've been away from the scene for a bit but I'm thinking of the WWII carbines in .30 cal...you don't mean M4 carbine by any chance?

 

I reloaded all of my ammo using RCBS competition dies with excellent results and faster setup as I used a single stage rock crusher press. Probably pretty dated tech by now. I've seen but never personally setup and used a progressive as I needed extremely consistent tolerances...no exceptions. This made it quite labor intensive but paid off. Athlon you just crack me up Bud...what are you busting decap pins doing?? Sure that press or the pin isn't out of alignment? I will agree that almost anybody's entry level die set sucks. .223 uses skinny little pins so if they weren't tempered anythings possible. Of course no rimfire round is reloadable (eg .22LR).

 

Honestly if you price all the stuff you will need to reload...honestly....Press, tumbler/media, dies, micrometers/calipers/head space guages/measurement fittings/devices, bullets, primers, powder, scales, throwers, primer seaters, cases after every x firings, setup blocks, storage, bullet boxes and believe me there's more and weigh that dollar amount against the amount of factory ammo you can buy and spend your time shooting instead of loading you might be surprised at the results. I of course am not recommending against it but rather a truly honest view of the investment in both dollars and time. Look up the cost for just powder, primers and bullets which you will need after every firing and divide the cost by the number of loads you get and you're probably already over factory stuff....at least it used to be true....times they are a changin'

 

Best deal is to get with a solid set of buds and split the cost but that easily gets weird when someone moves/has kid/loses job etc etc. If you do this put it in writing...trust me if they won't sign for their word it's not worth the paper it's not written on.

 

Are you going to reload in the house/apt? Open gunpowder? Loose primers?

 

Food for thought

 

 

ps Reloading is not for economy it's a religion

 

pps If you decide not too reload I'll send you my address for your once fired brass...

[evilducky]

I have though of reloading, but right now to get brass 5.56 is alittle expensive. I have been using the wolf ammo for awhile now and have no problems with it and I only pay about 300$ for a 1000 rounds. I have fired well over 500 rounds of it and have had only maybe 1 or 2 hick ups with it at most (which is not alot of rounds I know, but I'm not a member of any ranges yet so its a little hard to shoot off more than 30 rounds at a time and in the same week. Don't wanna piss off the neighbors too much =P). Yes its a little dirty but that's not a problem as I usually clean my gun after every other shoot.

 

I did get that new stock in and on, and I think it feels a lot better than the stock A2 stock I had on cause it gives you that little bit of adjustment that is needed. I did find a range too that has a 300 yard capability and I go Tuesday for their meeting to see if I can get in. After that I can finally get a chance to shoot more and hopefully start learning new stuff as they have a few members.

[MedicSN6]

Luckily, I have access to a lot of farm land and can shoot there. This of course is in addition to the local PD rifle range and the Tac team's private range, where I have an open invitation to join them at when they are shooting. Plus I get to use their rounds when I do.

 

An 'aha' moment. This is how little I know about reloading... rimfire... not reloadable. This actually makes sense, but good to know for sure.

 

I would get rid of my Oak futon in the office and build a sturdy work bench to house all and work on. Not a big deal but the wife will want paint it a neutral color. I say wood grain is neutral. maybe I'd just stain it. Right now I do all of my rifle cleaning at my computer desk. I just put on a movie, cover all my keyboard and mouse with plastic and get to cleaning.

 

I am sure the cost of reloading supplies and the cost of factory ammo are somewhat proportional. The law of supply and demand would apply to both. So this is want I want a recommendation on equipment and supplies as to what to get for the basic stuff and I can either buy over time or save up and get it all at once.

Brass is not a problem, I can get it from my friends who shoot .223 and .45.

[Xross]

RCBS Video

 

Okay video to show process although out of sequence for TV (this vid actually makes it look waaay too easy and I take issue with some of it but gives the general idea).

 

The prep work and setup is the time eater not pulling the handle. Notice when he starts the single stage operation these steps have already been completed:

 

1) Brass collection

2) Brass cleaning

3) Brass inspection

4) Brass sorting

5) Spent primers out (decapping)

6) Primer hole deburred

7) Primer pocket cleaned/uniformed

8) Chamber dimensions are known

9) Dies are properly setup and adjusted (all tolerances +/- .0005" or better... that's half a thousandth)

10) Powder loads are known and powder scale is programmed for throw weight (assuming fancy electronics)

11) Brass that is ready to be loaded is nicely sorted into load blocks at the press

12) Lube pad is setup

13) Start video and load one round

 

**Don't forget the brass work and die swap/setup required between the resizing stage and bullet seating stage which is another several steps and more equipment/time**

 

Video continues into a touch of the prep and then a progressive which you will want if you shoot massive amounts of ammo and don't need extreme accuracy (eg some pistol stuff).

 

There are others but this was handy.

 

Enjoy and add up the $$ you see in that setup.