Rooster90 Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 (edited) I know I've only been back for a short while and I know this is still sort of a running debate. But it needs to be discussed. War in Takistan is a real blast. It's a lot of fun and requires a lot of teamwork. Along with teamwork it also requires a great amount of discipline. This isn't as much of a discussion about WiT as it is about team etiquette. For those who were online tonight, I think we understand the situation that occurred. Without getting personal or naming names, I'll explain in short: the players elected a commander to lead them without any initial vocal objectors. Everything was fine until the CO started giving orders and laying out a plan for the next mission. Some vocal objections were made, which are perfectly fine. However, when the commander turned down said objection/alternate plan, the objectors decided to ditch the team and run off on their own without communicating with anybody else. Regardless of the events that took place afterwards and whether or not the CO was making bad decisions, this type of mindset is... disappointing. I know its not Tac Saturday, but the style of play we all voted to play was hijacked by a minority (1 or 2 players). If people want to play WiT in a non-tactical, lonewolf, arcade manner, that is totally fine. But why do the players who don't want to play that way have to be bothered by it? (our overall team score takes a negative) These aren't side missions on Tac Dom. My intent is not to start a flame war about individuals or any sort of personal attacks. Whether the elected CO/admin was making sound decisions or not is a moot point. The majority wanted to follow and play his way. You can have disagreements, but in my eyes we should be playing together (and dying together, lol). It's not like the tactical guys hijacked the server in the middle of a group's mission. It was something the majority voted and agreed on. We even waited to play until late at night so as not to bother the arcade guys. I'm just not convinced all of the Sparta community can handle this level of teamplay required for WiT. I'm not saying take it down, but it seems to me people still want to play the game like Tac Dom side missions and not take teamwork seriously. I know that in the end it's just about having fun playing a game together, and for each of us that means something different. But why is it that the tactical guys get one day a week to do our thing and the rest of the week we're at the mercy of the regulars? Does voting someone being a CO/admin outside of Tac Saturday mean nothing? Discuss! EDIT: As a side note, the overall night was still fun! It certainly wasn't all negative. But this one instance really put a downer on things. Edited April 28, 2011 by Rooster90 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeno~SPARTA~ Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 WIT has to be played with a plan, whether there is a commander or not, there has to be a plan and the plan must be followed (allowing for forced adjustments - terrain or enemy induced for example). Even though the game allows for mercenaries, going off plan obviously screws up timing and therefore all of the mission dynamics. Spartas private servers are for coordinated play, please respect this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaiSan Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 I totally agree with both of the above posts. I will go one step further. I don't care WHO it is, if anyone displayed that utter disregard for other peoples enjoyment or the majority vote then I WILL kick them from the server (after suitable warning of course). When you play on a SPARTA server you agree to abide by our ethics and play style, it's a simple decision to make, either stay and play in the team or find another server to play on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durka-Durka~SPARTA~ Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 I think this post is applicable to WIT. http://www.legionofspartans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6738&view=findpost&p=58159 (See Rule #4) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batwing~SPARTA~ Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 I am completely agree with all of the above and most importantly, with the thread title itself "WiT is not for everyone" This takes me to another interesting point also. The other day I was playing on WiT and I was inserting with Killerbee and Rooster. I aked to join the same team to be visible and Killerbee raised an interesting objection, which I tend to agree with. He said prefer to not join the same team to avoid the "diamond" marker and keep the environment more Tac. I do like that, but joining the same team allows to have the STHud working and that is a help to the limited visibility you have on a restrained FOV ina game. So, is it possible to have the game set to avoid markers but still being able to get in the same team? Probably we were playing the map on Regular. Possibly switching to Veteran solve the issue, but I can t recall. This mission should be played with no markers indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durka-Durka~SPARTA~ Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Switching to veteran should take away those diamonds, and the enemy markers on the map. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
custard~SPARTA~ Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Batwing I think you need to set the server to veteran and possible WIT parameters to simulation. We have a public server for those that do not wish to participate in the teamwork on offer they should be encouraged to use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter~SPARTA~ Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 I just heard other side story. Funny. I trust they story more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeno~SPARTA~ Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 I will be on TS today lets chat about it and sort out these differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBE Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 WIT has to be played with a plan, whether there is a commander or not, there has to be a plan and the plan must be followed (allowing for forced adjustments - terrain or enemy induced for example). Even though the game allows for mercenaries, going off plan obviously screws up timing and therefore all of the mission dynamics. Spartas private servers are for coordinated play, please respect this. But be sure to listen to all sides ... they both was wrong at some point ... (for the record i wasn't there) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeno~SPARTA~ Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 I am not judging anyone, but what I have written is important for War in Takistan. Lets clear this up on TS before there is any bad blood and we can get back to having fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunthar~SPARTA~ Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Wasn't this discussion held not more than 2 months ago about the same exact thing happening on Dom servers and the answer then was that the people complaining were overreacting to the situation. Why is it that now the teamwork is actually needed to complete objectives we suddenly need to address the issue and solve the problem. I am just wondering what has changed from 2 months ago when this was not an important issue. Gunthar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeno~SPARTA~ Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 I have an easy solution since a bunch of you cant get along at times. There is an ACE Tac server on at all times. If you want to go full tac, tight comms etc, take it there, those that want a less tac (but still with coordinated play) stay on the normal server. I dont particularly enjoy these posts, so unless you want the admins to sort it out, find some amicable middle ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster90 Posted April 28, 2011 Author Share Posted April 28, 2011 Sure Zeno. Like I said earlier, I have absolutely no personal problems with any of those involved in the incident. It's not a personal attack on them by any means and I wish for no bad blood. It was just a little disappointing to see. We made it through the rest of the night just fine and had a lot of fun. To me at least, if somebody is voted leader I'd expect everyone to respect that. If there are those that disagree with the leadership, I have no problem with them if they don't want to participate in his plan. There is a mercenary team on WiT. I'll be on TS in a bit, hopefully this can get sorted out before it blows up into something much bigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunthar~SPARTA~ Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 I can agree with you Zeno that is a middle ground that will allow both sides to function in the manner which they want. I think the issue at hand is that even when these rules are followed by most players there have been multiple instances of one or two lone wolves jumping on the server and creating havoc just due to their not considering their impact upon others. I understand that if you jump on the server and only want to say do side missions you would not consider your impact on those doing main AO's and such, however in many ways you will impact their gaming experience through the use of equipment and the accidental triggering of the main AO's or objectives. I do not believe that any of our normal players are intentionally causing problems because they want to I just think that they are at some point not viewing the situation from all sides (i.e. their impact on others). In most cases this can be solved by a simple word from the players or the elected leader of the group toward that person to make them aware of their impact. Most of us will more than happily remedy the situation or join the group if asked; it is all about a line of communication that in most cases is not being used. I had heard something about this from others about 3 days ago so I did a little experiment last night and joined the server without being in the TS channel, got my load out, stole a helo and flew up to the sniper post landed and started running toward the objective popping off random rounds at targets into town. I fully expected to find at least two people telling me to get on TS or something but everyone seemed to either not be paying attention or not willing to communicate toward me the fact that I was not following procedures. Mind you I did not do anything to endanger those playing the game just testing to see if anyone would speak up. If you are on the server and anyone, to include a member of SPARTA, is doing things to damage your playing experience through their actions please make sure you tell them. If they ignore you or get an attitude then report them to one of the admin's and I am sure they will take care of it. For me this has gotten out of hand in recent months and needs to be solved within the community not putting the responsibility on Zeno and the other admins to put people into Time out. We need to communicate with each other and try to ensure that everyone is having fun not just you. If you have 10 people who want to play DOM and 2 that want to play a mission go play DOM but sometimes you need to think about that guy that wants to play WIT and consider that while you and the majority always get to play what you want those few that do not enjoy it may leave or feel as if they don't matter because they always have to do what everyone else wants to do. We should have a rotation during the week that we all agree on so that if you want to play DOM you come on Monday or whatever so that people know that they will not be forced to play the same thing over and over again just because they are part of the minority. We are a community and we must consider everyone's gaming experience otherwise we will lose good people who will contribute much more to our community because they feel alienated. Yes I realize that I have not been on the Arma servers in a bit but with my personal life taking precedence I do not have time to enjoy the game as I used to so. I am sorry about the last post I was being a smart ass and it is hard to convey that in text. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster90 Posted April 28, 2011 Author Share Posted April 28, 2011 Actually, I kinda think that's a great idea that you inadvertently came up with Gunthar. If we all voted on how many (and which) days WiT would be in rotation, on those particular days the rules enforced on the server would be a tad more restrictive. I'm not saying lock down the comms, have a 10-15 min brief before playing and dictate what players can and cant use, but at the very least allow the CO and designated squad leaders to have a bit more saying power and approach the map in a much more realistic and strategic manner. Have the WiT days sway more to the tactical side. Or, since I know everybody likes WiT in some manner or another, designate certain days that WiT will be on Veteran difficulty or higher, and in simulation mode. I could definitely support a compromise such as this. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KalXen~SPARTA~ Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 I see a very common undertone: We've already said that WiT really only works unless you are working as a team. So by default make the given rule that Tac rules apply for it. Comms, MC, engagement rules, etc. Which leads to this. If WiT takes Tac-like rules to make it work, then why isn't it played on the Tac server? This way we can have a tight server as expected, and a more 'socialable' server for the other. I constantly see people go in to check and quickly leave the Arma channel because people are playing some map that others don't want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter~SPARTA~ Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 (edited) Its not about playing tac. Its about folks who join server and try to push other players around. Acting as they know everything and their way is best. Witch usuallly end up slothering own troops and loosing WiT And btw there is no problems during day shift. At that time everyone get along well Edited April 28, 2011 by peter~SPARTA~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster90 Posted April 28, 2011 Author Share Posted April 28, 2011 Well, when somebody is elected as CO/admin, when that person gives orders, regardless if they are sound orders or not, you're expected to respect their orders and follow them for the sake of working as a team. Like I said, the argument of whether the orders were bad or not is a moot point. If following orders is considered "pushing people around" well, then I honestly don't know how to respond to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KalXen~SPARTA~ Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Peter - Next time this happens, and if I'm on TS at the time, notify me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EL_n00biachi Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 I see a very common undertone: I constantly see people go in to check and quickly leave the Arma channel because people are playing some map that others don't want. Just gonna respond to this,cause im not going to respond on the main topic here;everyone knows the way i feel. This is a major problem KalXen because random players log in as admin and stop the rotation...there should be a rule to not allow "island-hogging" this way everyone gets to play their favorite island and everyone knows their favorite island will rotate sooner or later and they wont leave......people leave cause they know that if its fe on Chernarus..it will be on Chernarus for atleast the entire day.... IMO there should be a rotation,enforced. Hope you guys get what i mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunthar~SPARTA~ Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 The current server "rule" as I understand it is that the majority rules if the majority of the players choose to play a map and a tactical plan then everyone should go along with the majority. The problem is that in many cases people do not respect the process. If a commander is elected then if he makes a decision then you follow orders and if you do not agree with them you follow orders then lodge concerns at a time that does not interfere with the mission. Pushing people around is a part of being a leader you have to be able to get people to do what you need them to do either through orders or them wanting them to do it. The major problem is that when people do not agree with what people want to do they run off and do what they want and in many cases ruin the gaming experience for the majority. This is to be blunt rude and ignorant of those doing this (yes I have done this once or twice so before I throw stones) if you do not agree with what the majority want to do then move to another server and go be a trigger happy Rambo there instead of screwing up a well planned out assault just because you get bored or don't agree with what is going on. The play on SPARTA servers is not mandatory and the private servers are for a more coordinated attack setup and should be used as such this is a stupid argument and needs to die. Follow the rules hug each other and play for the group and not for just you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter~SPARTA~ Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 You just dont get whats leadership is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GooniversalSoldier~SPARTA~ Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 (edited) You just dont get whats leadership is. That is uncalled for peter Edited April 29, 2011 by GooniversalSoldier~SPARTA~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durka-Durka~SPARTA~ Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 Not to mention inaccurate. Let's please stay on topic, nobody wants to close this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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