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EVE GUIDE - High Sec Combat: Can Flipping


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From: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=846553&page=1

 

Edited by: Tristen Orde on 14/08/2008 03:01:34

I've been meaning to write a guide on this for a long while as I've never seen an in depth post about the world of can flipping. I know very well that it's viewed as a 'newbie's' game and is generally on the bottom rung of piracy, but I rarely have more fun in any other environment.

 

Unlike the guide in the Resource thread, Ore Theft 101, this is geared more towards killing the targets than just getting away with the ore. I really couldn't care less about the ore. With that, I present to you High Sec Combat: Can Flipping...

 

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Although not the most lucrative of high sec pirating activities, can flipping is one of the easier ways to find kills. Given that, you may still make respectable isk from ransoms and Tech 2 mining lasers, less so from actually taking the ore (I usually blow up the can). If nothing else, it will at least pay for any loses you take while can flipping.

 

Overall, flipping is a game of manipulation and patience. Gaining kill rights on someone that doesn't necessarily want to fight is not always an easy thing to do. Sometimes all you'll have to do is flip a can and the miner will attack. Other times, it might take some social manipulation to 'talk' the miner into allowing you kill rights. I'll give some examples of this further on.

 

Below are my observations on can flipping taken from doing it almost exclusively for the past year or more. I'll explain the basics followed by some more theoretical concepts. Sure, it is a very simple activity seen by someone on the outside... but there are more layers than most think.

 

 

I. THE BASICS

1.1 Aggression

1.2 Ships

1.3 Method

1.3.1 Locations

1.3.2 Scanning

1.3.3 Approach

1.3.4 Flipping

 

II. ADVANCED

2.1 Technical

2.1.1 Target Ship Types

2.1.2 Dealing with Drones

2.1.3 Dealing with Corporations

2.1.4 Identifying Baiters

2.2 Manipulation

2.2.1 Situational Responses

2.2.2 Social Manipulation

2.2.3 Concording Your Target

2.3 Corporation Involvement

2.3.1 Giving Your Corp Kill Rights

2.3.2 Your Corp Taking Kill Rights

 

 

I THE BASICS

 

1.1 Aggression

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Firstly, aggression rules. High sec isn't like low sec or 0.0. You must earn kill rights on someone through various means. War targets are the only ships you may shoot at, without being Concorded, anywhere in high sec without a prior method of gaining kill rights. Any enemy that is flashing bright red in the overview may be fired upon without concord involvement. Below are the various reasons you may be allowed to kill a pilot's ship:

 

-Pilot fires on your ship, either with or without kill rights on you.

-Pilot steals from a can or wreck you own

-Pilot repairs another pilot you already have kill rights on

 

The aggression timer lasts for 15 minutes. You'll have 15 minutes from the last time someone stole from you or the last time you shot at the target to fire at them. Engaging a target resets the aggression timer to 15 minutes.

 

1.2 Ships

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The most important element of can flipping is appearing as non-threatening as possible. Your main objective, after the obvious carebear destruction, is to make the flippee feel as though he can easily destroy the annoying newbie that is trying to steal his stuff. Due to this, Tech 1 frigates are the ideal ships for can flipping. They also happen to be extremely cheap, so you can lose as many as it takes for you to learn this craft! The major threat to any can flipper is drones. It takes a tough ship to destroy 5 Tech 2 Light Drones before they return the favor.

 

Amarr Punisher - In my opinion, this frigate is the ideal can flipping ship. It can put out a ton of damage and it's potentially the hardest nut to crack of all T1 frigates. The lack of a speed mod, as it only has two mid slots, doesn't matter much since 90% of your targets will already be at close range.

 

Minmatar Rifter - This ship is another ideal choice for can flipping (and probably the

best all-around T1 frigate). It is versatile and fast.

 

Caldari Kestrel - The Kestrel can be tanked well and puts out impressive damage with

rocket launchers.

 

Gallente Incursus - The Incursus is the ship I started in. Although it's decent, the

difficulty of surviving tough drones due to the lack of low slots makes it one of the

least ideal can flipping ships.

 

The Caldari Merlin and Gallente Tristan are also decent choices for can flipping. However,

because of split weapons systems and the slow overall speed of these ships, I chose to

list the four above as the preferable ones. Give other frigates a try, if you'd like;

maybe you'll make it work better than I did.

 

 

1.3 Method

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Can flipping, on a basic level, is a very simple activity. The steps to flip a can and take his stuff is ultimately one of the most basic 'jobs' one can learn Eve.

 

 

1.3.1 Location

The number of cans in a system is proportional to the number of people in a system divided by the number of mission runners. Basically, find systems that are well populated but are not mission systems as most of that population are in missions. Find a good base system (Sobaseki is a good example) and create multiple, circular routes throughout the whole area. 10-20 jumps is a good route and it should pass through other higher-population systems.

 

 

1.3.2 Scanning

I fly through most belts one by one. However, if a planet has four or more belts associated with it, I will warp to the planet and use the Ship Scanner to scan each belt individually with a 15 degree scan. You should hope to find a belt with both a ship and a cargo container, but if it's a .8 or above, warp in any way to make sure a lone ship isn't just using an unsecured Secure Container. You can steal from these or just scoop the whole thing with a hauler!

 

 

1.3.3 Approach

There are two methods of approach. The first is to simply warp into a belt at 0 and fly up to a can. There are situations where the second method is preferable, which will be worked thorugh later, that give better results. The second method involves warping into a belt, bookmarking a target can, warping to the nearby planet and then warping back right on top of the can.

 

 

1.3.4 Flipping

The last step; Flipping. The best way to quickly flip a can is to eject something from your own cargo next to their can. Some people like to move some items from the target can into their hold, eject it and then move the rest over, but this gives them kill rights on you before you're ready. Eject your own item (one piece of ammo works), open up both container windows and drag their items into your can. As soon as their items are dropped, they will have kill rights on you. Can flipping complete!

 

At this point you may decide to bring an alt hauler to take the ore, try to provoke a fight or, though odd, leave the guy alone.

 

II ADVANCED

 

The basics are enough to get anyone by, but who doesn't appreciate learning things and applying them later rather than failing multiple times without a clue as to why? This is split up into three sections. The first is about your own actions and how you should proceed or what you might expect. The second is more theoretically and gives some information on how the target might act to your benefit. The third is some additional basic information on how you may get your corp involved in your antics.

 

2.1 Technical

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These sections deal with the more absolute concepts and technicalities of can flipping.

 

 

2.1.1 Target Ship Types

In mining, there are only a few ships people will generally use. As with anything, there are exceptions to this list but they honestly aren't worth mentioning as they tend to be harder to predict.

 

Frigates - The mining frigates, almost not even worth mentioning or flipping the cans of, are the easiest targets you will find. These are usually week old players that may not even have a gun and do not have drones fit to attack you. They also don't have much ore.

 

Destroyers - The mining destroyers are just as much of a joke as the frigates. They will pull in more ore to steal, though. Also, they seem to be the most likely of any miners to engage a can flipping frigate if they have a weapon fit on the ship.

 

Mining Barges - Although technically a higher level than cruisers, they are always easier to kill. All mining barges will go down quickly unless set up as bait. They can fit 5 Tech 2 Light Drones for combat, but unless they're T2 or you're in a particularly fragile frigate, it's almost always possible to destroy the Barge before the drones kill you.

 

Cruisers - The common mining cruisers are still fairly easy to destroy. Both may carry a few drones and can also fit a weapon system or two to fight back with. Cruiser miners tend to be more willing than usual to engage a can flipper; apparently the weapon system makes them feel tougher than they actually are. They might field a light tank, but otherwise go down easily.

 

Battleships - For some reason, people think it is a good idea to mine in a battleship. Honestly, this is like painting a big 'Easy Target' sign on your back. What mining in a Battleships says to me is 'I need to make money as quickly as possible mining and I don't have time for the small ships. Oh, and I also think no one will bother me.' Wrong. Mining battleships are usually outfitted with nothing more than mining lasers, mining upgrades, a light tank and some drones if it is able to carry them. It might take quite a bit of ammo and some higher damage skills & weapon pairs, but they eventually fall. Even if it's a mining ship, it is satisfying to see a Rokh kill on the Killboard using a Punisher.

 

Hulks - Hulks are the prize of can flipping. They offer high ransoms and sometimes decent loot. They also might offer up a legitimate tank and 5 T2 Light Drones. Otherwise, deal with them the same as a Mining Barge.

 

Mackinaws - I wasn't going to mention them, as I've only ever gotten a few to react to theft, but Mackinaws are dealt with the same way as a Mining Barge and aren't much of a threat.

 

2.1.2 Dealing with Combat Ships

It isn't uncommon for a miner to warp back to a station and grab a combat ship or for a miner to have combat ship guardians. In these situations, warping away to grab a larger ship while, hopefully, the combat ships steal the ore back is perfectly acceptable. As soon as the ship steals your rightfully gained ore back, you may warp in with the larger ship and destroy the target. This is covered further in Situational Responses.

 

2.1.3 Dealing with Drones

Depending on the ship type and drone type, it is perfectly reasonable to just ignore drones and destroy the ship. However, targeting drones and destroying them first allows an easier time convincing the target pilot to pay a ransom. It also might save you from being destroyed before you can destroy the target.

 

Light drones are difficult to hit, even with small close-range guns and good tracking skills. Webbing and destroying each drone individually is the most efficient way of getting rid of these annoying minions. Usually, three small close-range weapons can three-volley a Webbed light drone.

 

With that, Tech 2 Light Drones are the most common threat to a can flipper. They can quickly rip apart a Tech 1 fit frigate with lower skills. Tech 2 Medium Drones are much easier to deal with (some Battleships and Cruisers may have them) as they can't hit you as easily and are easier to destroy. If they seem like a threat, Warp Scramble the target and destroy each drone individually before moving on to the target. In most cases, the drones are doing MUCH more damage than the mining ship.

 

2.1.4 Dealing with Corporations

If the target is in a NPC Corporation, this section is completely useless as his corporation members can not come to his aid if you steal a can. However, if the target IS in a Player Corporation, any member of the same corporation (but not Alliance) may attack you. Due to this, it is important to open the Info for a target, select Relationships and change your view of their corp to -10. After doing this, you will be able to scroll through the chat window and any other members of their corporation in the system will show up with an associated color tag next to their name.

 

If there are no other corporation members in the system, proceed as normal. If there are, weight the different risks appropriately. Check the ages of the other members of the corp. Is it mainly a mining corp with little likelihood of PVPers? Are any of the other corp members in the same belt; if there is another corp member in the belt with a hauler, he's pretty useless as help.

 

Be aware that if there are other corporation members in the system, they may be able to warp in to aid their corp mate and attempt to destroy you. This could either give you some extra targets or cause your destruction. Thus, the weighing of the risks. An option of using your own corporation to deal with these situations will follow further on in the guide.

 

 

2.1.5 Identifying Baiters

Baiters have become more and more prevalent. These are people, usually in NPC corps or pirate corps, who pretend to be mining in a belt but are actually set up to quickly destroy any can flipping frigates that come along. Signs that someone might be baiting are:

 

-Mining drones but not actually mining from the ship

-Lack of mining lasers or only one when more may fit (I've seen Barges do this, too)

-A negative sec status

-In a uncommon mining ship, good examples being the Moa or Vexor cruisers.

 

Baiters are usually fit specifically to destroy frigates using small weapons with high tracking, webifiers and capacitor neutralizers.

 

 

2.1.6 Ransoming

Except for the rare lucky drop of a faction mod from a Hulk, ransoms make up the bulk of a can flippers income. Ransoming is usually performed after the target ship is into structure and, preferably, after drones are destroyed. At this point, you may convo the target and ask for an amount of isk for the opportunity to be let go. What this amount is depends heavily on the ship type, if it's tech 1 or tech 2, how old the player is, what he might be carrying and how willing the pilot is to pay.

 

2.2 Manipulation

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This is a side of can flipping that most people don't give it much credit for. Sure, anyone can flip a can and hope for the best, but being able to consistently turn a combat-free situation into a delicious kill requires a degree of manipulation, general people skills and straight up lying. Being able to read a target based on the response they give to theft, as well as other factors, is just as important.

 

 

2.2.1 Situational Responses

As I said, flipping cans requires more than just flying up to a can and flipping it to be successful. Different types of players respond differently to how a can flipper conducts himself. Some factors to consider are:

 

-Age of the player: Younger players don't understand aggression rules well and can be panicked into attacking or tricked into taking the ore back.

 

-Ship type: Certain ship types are more likely to attack than others.

 

-Chatting conduct in the Local channel: If a player is easily angered, angering them more through smack is a good path to take. If the player seems confused or frustrated, play dumb.

 

-Ship types of corpmates in the belt: A target is more likely to engage if there is backup around, depending on the ship types.

 

-Amount of ore stolen: This is the only constant in the factors. The greater the ore stolen, the greater the chance there is that you will be aggressed or the ore will be stolen back.

 

Depending on these factors, there are a few different courses of action I will take to attempt aggression gaining on someone. They all imply something different and, as was stated near the top, the image you project is important in gaining kill rights.

 

-Flip a can and just sit there: This is useful against mining barges, Hulks and slightly older cruisers. It implies that you know what you just did, but you're unsure of yourself and don't want to take it any further.

 

-Flip a can and target & orbit the ship: This is used against new players, players that target you before you flip the can and players that are being hostile or aggressive in local chat. It doesn't necessarily imply anything about you, but it can panic or goad players into action.

 

-Flip a can and move on to another can or wreck to steal: This implies that you don't really know what you just did and you're just trying to make some isk or clean up the area. It works better against older players where the other methods might fail.

 

-Flip a can and warp out: This is reserved for when a good bit of ore is stolen and the target has combat backup waiting to destroy you. The purpose is to hope that the can of ore is stolen back giving you (and your corporation) kill rights on someone.

 

2.2.2 Social Manipulation

 

Social Manipulation is probably the trickiest part of can flipping. Sometimes normal methods just aren't going to get you aggression rights. There are way too many different ways to manipulate, or talk, a player into aggressing you. I will list a few of my regular methods that have success and a couple of the funnier, unique ones. This isn't something that can be taught; it is a skill you either have or must work with to gain.

 

A. My most successful manipulation tactic is to pretend to be a stupid newbie that wants a favor. I use this most against Hulks that do not have a can to steal from. The steps go like this:

-Convo the hulk

-Pretend to be relieved that you finally found someone to accept the convo... act desperate

-Ask if the hulk has drones

-Ask if you can ask a favor

-Tell the hulk that your corp mates are far away and you just outfitted your new frigate.

You need to test the tank of the new frigate before you fly all the way back down there and his 5 drones are a perfect survivability test

-Stress that you want him to stop at low armor/shield (whichever is tanked) and that you really don't want to lose the ship!

-If he agrees, suggest he eject one unit of ore so that he may fire at you. be sure to warn him not to fire until you're flashy (again with the innocence)

For some reason, 50% of Hulk pilots will fall for this and agree to 'test your tank'. Honestly, I think this might be an easier way to get Hulk ransoms than flipping it's can. It, overall, comes off as much less threatening.

 

B. Another good and common technique is to act like you just don't care. Tell the miner that their ships and drones can easily destroy your puny tech 1 frigate and that you just want a fight. If someone thinks they can win and think you don't think you can win, they have an increased chance of agreeing. This, of course, works better with newer players.

 

C. Sometimes it is easier to talk someone into taking the ore back than to attack. Send the miner a convo after you flip a can and he isn't reacting. Pretend that you expected the miner to be a macro miner. Now that you know he isn't, explain that he should take his ore back and to please not tell your CEO. This works much better if your Corp bio doesn't have any pirate-like text in it. Also, something Racketeers used to do was put a 'CEO Inserted Message' into their player biographies. The Message informed anyone looking at it that the corp is only out to get Macro Miners and that the members are forbidden to engage legitimate players. It ensures the target that they can take their can back without fear of retribution.

 

D. Unique Story Time! Being creative is fun and unexpected. I am not saying to use this exact story, it is only an example of just whipping something out. It's amazing what kind of ridiculous story people will believe. I flipped a can of a miner in New Caldari last year and he quickly sent me a 'What the hell' convo request. I feigned ignorance as to why he was upset and informed him that my CEO told me he was mining for me that day. It was my job to transplant the ore into a can and haul it. After I let him 'convince' me that this wasn't the case at all, I apologized profusely and told him that he may take the ore back. Somehow, this worked. He took the ore back and I got a kill.

 

E. Unique #2: Another example of creativity. Involving your fellow corp members in on the manipulation results in funny times and hilarious chat logs on the forums. After a kill on a particularly belligerent and ignorant miner, a corpmate sent the miner a convo. He informed the miner that it was totally against our policy to pirate. He apologized for my actions, told him that I would be disciplined and asked (didn't tell, sometimes it's important to give the option and not demand) the miner if he would like to come back and pick up his ore. He would protect him from me if I came back and destroy me himself. The miner came back, took his ore and we both proceeded to kill his hauler. My corpmate took it even further by claiming that I killed him too quickly for his Myrmidon to deal with my punisher because he accidentally targeted an asteroid. He came back a THIRD time in a combat ship after the corpmate told him to come back and help him kill me. Sadly, the third kill was the end of the encounter.

 

 

2.2.3 Concording Your Target

As demonstrated above, some people are just idiots. Either that or they're so intent on killing you that they don't pay attention to aggression mechanics. If someone promises to come back and kill you in a bigger ship and is in the process of putting it together... wait around and let them. Tell them that you're waiting in 'such and such belt' but actually wait at a planet. After some minutes go by, and the aggression timer has wound down quite a bit, the miner will come back in his ultimate ship of destruction to dole out your death. Stall for as much time as possible. Your objective is to warp back in so that his kill rights on you disappear a few seconds before he started targeting you. There's a chance he'll fire anyway and get concorded. If kill rights have been gone for more than a couple minutes, the best course of action is to warp in and immediately target and orbit the ship to attempt panicking him into action. Concord-gained loot is still loot gained.

2.3 Corporation Involvement

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Can flipping doesn't always have to be a solo gig. Rather, sometimes it requires the help of others. If there are too many targets to deal with or the target is too much to handle in general, trying to get your corp mates kill rights is perfectly viable and is fun for all involved.

2.3.1 Giving Your Corp Kill Rights

Giving your corp kill rights is totally up to you. Your job is to get the target or the target's combat guardians to take the can back. At this point, your corp mates can warp in (preferably from out of system so they don't see them) and destroy the ship. Occasionally, this will cascade into an even larger battle as both sides keep trying to take back the ore and the resulting wrecks. Chaos!!!

 

2.3.2 Your Corp Taking Kill Rights

Your corp mates taking kill rights is slightly harder as it requires the target to knowingly bite off more than it can chew. The two common ways for a corpmate to take kill rights is to take a can or wreck of the targets or to repair your ship as you fight them. Both of these methods allow the target(s) to attack the new corpmate and allow him to fight back.

 

 

FIN!

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In addition to the guide, the thread has tips for can flipping that are not addressed by the original poster (OP).

 

For example:

 

Originally by: Keeves The "You" Can

If a miner has targeted you but is a little wary to engage, rename the can you flipped "You", target the can and the miner, and warp disrupt the can. A message will pop up saying "XX has warp scrambled you!" and might panic the miner enough to engage. Deal with miner as desired.

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I had mentioned to Slain at one point that we should write a Guide to Can Flipping. He tossed out some general ideas that have worked for him. I got to thinking about it a bit and realized that as long as can flipping has been around, there should be some type of guide or tips sheet that someone has written already.

 

The above is the best of what I have found.

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