tac night?

[T_1]

Perhaps, best to let Dai respond if he wants to.

 

I wasn't playing last night so don't know if this situation occurred, so perhaps I shouldn't have brought it up, but it seems strange to me that if someone opens up on me, if ROE is red, then I shouldn't return fire. Maybe it's just me.

 

[Durka-Durka~SPARTA~]

Perhaps, best to let Dai respond if he wants to.

 

I wasn't playing last night so don't know if this situation occurred, so perhaps I shouldn't have brought it up, but it seems strange to me that if someone opens up on me, if ROE is red, then I shouldn't return fire. Maybe it's just me.

 

 

I think what where we're missing the mark here is assigning definitions to different forms of play. I know that red/green/yellow is a simple way to define ROE, but in some ways it can be constricting and confusing. When I'm leading a squad, I usually tell the guys do not fire unless fired upon, or told to fire. That, by most definitions, is RED. This means that even if you have a full squad bearing down on you from 600m out, and they see you, you are not to engage unless given the go ahead. The reason being is that you want to engage the enemy on your terms. Ever see Braveheart? Remember the famous scene where he told his guys to "HOOOLD!" until the last possible minute? Same here.

 

If someone in my squad is forced to fire on the enemy, then once the threat is taken care of, the plan has to change and we "break contact" which basically means retreat to a safer area and find a new route in.

 

I use the YELLOW to basically fire on the enemy until I get to my rally point, then I hold everyone up there, only firing on those who are attacking my position. So, basically, I use it as a purely defensive posture.

 

I use GREEN just for assaults. But I usually try to define these ROE for anyone who may not understand.

[custard~SPARTA~]

Based on Medics description I dont understand the difference between red and yellow.

 

You have a point and if I was leading I would not give a RED engagement order in a hot AO it makes no sense, but hey thats me lol

 

Whilst leading my fireteam I forgot to issue an engagement order initially and was prompted politely by a teamate, it's something I should pay more attention too.

[Lightspeed~SPARTA~]

I may be wrong but I take ROE as this -

 

Green - open fire on any target (we all agree on this)

 

Yellow - open fire on any target who has detected you and could compromise your position if not eliminated, ie. you have been spotted and he is going for reinforcements or calling for reinforcements.

 

Red - do not fire except in self defense, ie the target has engaged or will engage you.

 

I don't think anyone would expect you to take a bullet for the team to protect stealth - you are more of a hindrance dead and definitely if injured.

 

 

Edited January 17, 2010 by Lightspeed~SPARTA~

[Kavlarakos~SPARTA~]

I don't pretend to speak for Dai, but I believe what he was trying to say is that the purpose of not firing on the enemy immediately is that you want to engage him on your terms, not the other way around.

 

 

I was with Dai San in Bravo Squad and there was this situation when I was prone guarding our right flank and the rest of our squad were moving out following Durka. Then I spotted some infantry at long range who also got prone pointing at us and I made my call letting Dai San know that there are tangos pointing at us and he just said "I don´t care we all move out following our pointman". I realized what he had in mind.

 

Moving quick and get an advantage to choose OUR battleground. And I really have to admit that he did an awesome job when he said weapoans red and I enjoyed it pretty much in Bravo.

[MedicSN6]

Rules of Engagement

 

Scenario: A PFC is walking down the road to a porta potty and is confronted with a 10-year old boy in enemy territory pointing a gun at him.

 

1. The soldier will request permission to fire from his platoon sergeant.

 

2. The platoon sergeant will ask the platoon leader.

 

3. The platoon leader will ask the company commander. The CO will call the battalion commander and ask for permission to fire.

 

4. The Bn Cdr will call the Bde Cdr to get permission to fire.

 

5. The Bde Cdr will call division and speak to a person in the G3 shop.

 

6. The G3 personnel will immediately start working on a slide presentation in powerpoint to present to the Commanding General on his options.

 

7. The slides will first be briefed to the Chief of Staff and will be sent back for revisions.

 

8. After 90 different versions have been completed, the Chief of Staff will finally approve the slides.

 

9. The CG will be presented slide presentation and will call Corps to ask the corps commander for permission to fire.

 

10. The G3 staff will fax a copy of the presentation to the corps G3 who will in turn ask for a copy to be sent by courier because the first copy got sent to the wrong fax number.

 

11. The poor captain who sent the fax to corps will be given a bad OER because he should have known that the fax number given to him by a colonel at corps was the wrong number.

 

12. Corps G3 finally receives the slide presentation and has his staff work on a corps presentation to give to the corps commander.

 

13. The corps commander is briefed, accepts his staffs proposal that the soldier should fire back, but has to call the Army commander to get permission.

 

14. The Army commander asks the corps commander to fax him all the information he has on the incident and he will get back to him.

 

15. The Army commander never receives the information.

 

16. Division is notified that the information did not reach Army so that poor captain with the bad OER is ordered to fax a copy of the slides to Army, the Pentagon, and the White House.

 

17. The Army commander finally receives the slides and says he will have to call the Army group commander for permission to fire.

 

18. The Army Group commander listens to the Army commander then tells him that he will have to call the Pentagon to get permission to fire.

 

19. The Army Group Commander calls the Pentagon and speaks with the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. The Chairman wants to know why some know-nothing captain from a division in theater is faxing a 200 page slide presentation to him and the president.

 

20. The Army Group commander tells the Chairman he will find out.

 

21. The Army Group commander calls the Army commander and asks why Captain Know-Nothing is faxing slides to the Pentagon and the White House.

 

22. The Army commander calls the corps commander and asks the same question.

 

23. The corps commander gets personally involved and calls directly to the division's G3 shop and asks to speak to CPT Know-Nothing.

 

24. CPT Know-Nothing is given another bad OER and is reassigned to sewage control in a prisoner of war camp.

 

25. The Army group commander informs the Chairman that the problem is taken care of.

 

26. The Chairman tells the Army Group commander that he will get back to him after he holds a meeting with all of the service chiefs.

 

27. During the meeting, the Air Force and Navy Chiefs decide they want a part in this decision now code-named "Operation Return Fire"

 

28. The Chairman agrees to allow the Air Force to send two tactical fighter wings and 10 B-52s from Diego Garcia. The Chairman allows the Navy to send in 5 carrier battle groups and 3 Marine divisions. On top of all of this, the Chairman tells the service chiefs that the Army will send in two more corps, five brigades of Artillery and an armored cavalry regiment. Furthermore he will ask the Secretary of defense if 500,000 Reservist and National Guardsmen can be called up.

 

29. The Chairman takes all of these proposals to the Secretary of Defense who agrees and tells the Chairman to prepare a briefing for the President.

 

30. A colonel stays up for a week straight preparing briefing slides and charts for the President's briefing.

 

31. The day of the briefing, the light bulb burns out in the White House's projector and the colonel who worked his butt off to set up this briefing loses the command he was going to take over this summer and is forced to retire because he should have known that the light bulb would burn out.

 

32. Eventually a lieutenant colonel locates a light bulb and he is promoted to colonel and is offered a command this summer that suddenly becomes open.

 

33. The president approves Operation Return Fire, but first he wants to get "eyes on the target"

 

34. Navy Seal Team 6 is dispatched to the area. Upon reaching the location where the soldier reported the contact, they find the decomposed body of a dead American PFC, still clutching a hand mike to his ear, looking as if he is waiting for a response to whatever question he asked.

 

 

*** In other words: shoot first, ask questions later. Especially when its just a game like ArmA 2.

[MedicSN6]

On a more serious note, the origin of color coded weapon ROE stem from safety statutes found on military shooting ranges and in AO situation readiness.

 

For example and basically the standard for ranges is:

Red= Magazine in weapon, round chambered, weapon off safe

Yellow=Magazine in weapon, no round in chamber, weapon on safe

Green= No magazine in weapon, no rounds chambered, weapon on safe (Cleared weapon, often with an orange or green chamber flag)

 

These modes are used to progress soldiers through different stages and checks while on the range. Since, in the military, terminology is often stolen from one use and applied to another it is easy to see why these terms have transferred from the range to the field of combat.

 

In official U.S. Army Rules of Engagement for readiness, the Red, Yellow, Green (RYG) codes define the general safety and alert level due to situation escalation in the AO.

Red= Credible and probable attack expected

Yellow= Upon determination of a credible attack

Green= No credible attack eminent, i.e. safe

 

This is in accordance with current AO 'zoning,' where the Green zone is generally safe and friendly and the Red zone or Hot zone is otherwise.

 

If we flip the code around to act as a traffic light where Red means stop, Yellow means slow, and Green means go, we can apply this, as it already has, to tactical video games and define when and when not to shoot.

 

As I described above and to compound upon,

 

"In my book, Red is the base for all elements. You may move to yellow, but when the threat is gone, you need to move back to red. Only when the commander gives the Green should you open up with everything. Yellow is intent on going back to Red, not up to Green."

 

The levels are for escalation of action determined by orders which are determined prior by command's ability to read the situation. If command feels that stealth is need to reach an area or achieve an objective he may issue a Red order until you reach the AO where he may want you to maintain yellow as a defensive precaution until you leave the AO.

 

For example and given we are playing Domination (which has no civilians and the enemy does not surrender), if you parajump into the AO right on top of the radio tower, there is no need for red, you are green all the way because the enemy knows you are there and are moving on your position. But, if your squad has landed 2 clicks out side of the AO and you are proceeding in on foot to achieve surprise, then the Red order is given to ensure stealth, until enemy contact is made and then a yellow order should be given. Green is never really needed except for missions such as DOM where the goal is to wipe the entire area clear of enemy. Again, this is not a realistic mission, because the enemy never surrenders, and there are no civilians, therefore green is certainly an acceptable order.

 

Remember that Rules of Engagement are meant to retain life and limit collateral damage and only as a secondary to serve as tactical tools to maintain order. Order that should already exist.

Look at it this way, as an example, your team's mission is to destroy an enemy factory. They send you in to plant demo charges and destroy a critical infrastructure. They send you in instead of bombing the building because you can limit the loss of life and limit collateral damage far more than carpet bombing the area. If the military didnt give a shit about human life, property, and sovereignty of people, we wouldn't have infantry. We'd only have an Air Force to hand-deliver massive tons of munitions.

 

Just remember that when you walk into the AO, you and your buddy should be walking out alive and with as few deaths as possible. A red order while operating in a DOM AO might as well be a suicide mission.

 

Of course, this is just my opinion... I could be wrong.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Medic~SPARTA~

[KalXen~SPARTA~]

Really?

[MedicSN6]

Really?

Bastard!

[Forrester~SPARTA~]

lol

[DaiSan]

Lol, reading these replies has provided me with a few chuckles.

 

Quoting correct military procedure and stuff is all well and good but you do realise that ArmA is a game... Right?

 

I still maintain that a ROE of RED means do NOT fire under any circumstances. Break contact, withdraw, do what you gotta do but do not fire and draw more attention to yourself, your team mates or your position.

 

Let me qualify by explaining where my logic comes from and then give a situation.

 

By the way, we have managed to come to terms with the fact that this is a game and we get to respawn and not really die right.

 

So, after years of playing MP FPS games, mostly Sci-Fi based or unrealistic shooters my first real 'Tactical' military shooter was Ghost Recon (the original, not GRIN's effort).

 

I played this since the day of release and have had the privilege to play in (what I class) some of the best squads around (TE - GRNET's GR squad, Alpha Squad and 9MS) in both in house and global tournaments. These were both TvT and more often scripted C0-Op tournaments.

 

Due to the nature of the mission based objectives and the fact that these often relied HEAVILY on stealth it was a fairly regular occurrence that if compromised and drawn into a firefight then either A: the mission became untenable or B: big points were lost. As such sometimes rather than return fire and aggravate a contact it was better to 'Take one for the team' allowing the rest of the squad to withdraw and move on with the mission or objective.

 

Now I WILL add a qualifier to this that maybe I should have before but didn't.

 

If you are in game and an enemy is a real obvious threat, you round a corner and he is there in your face, or charging straight through the trees at you and you have no where to go, then I would expect anyone, on their discretion to return fire.

 

IF on the other hand you are say, on the extreme right flank and get pinged by what seems a lone enemy who is firing ranging shots at you, then I do NOT expect you to return fire if under a RED ROE.

 

Maybe we need more colours ?

 

Personally, if I felt it would compromise my whole squads chance of achieving an objective or would put others in unwarranted danger, I would 'Take one for the Team' after all, I get to do it all again in a minute or so.

 

But that's just me.

 

 

[KalXen~SPARTA~]

Not to but here is how I've thought of it.

 

Red = Try to maintain 100% stealth, do not engage, lay low, and if anything carry silenced weapons. If we are fired upon, weapons go yellow unil threat is removed and then back to red if the opponent is not aware of us.

 

Yellow = The goal is to travel to our objective, but shoot close or advantageous objects. Short bursts, sniper fire. Do not increase our awareness too much that it would force us into a green stance.

 

Green = Whip out all your ammo, we're going to be here for a while blasting everything because there is no option for stealth anymore. Mortars, artillery, armor, SMAWs, etc force this mode when conducting operations.

[MedicSN6]

Not to but here is how I've thought of it.

 

Red = Try to maintain 100% stealth, do not engage, lay low, and if anything carry silenced weapons. If we are fired upon, weapons go yellow unil threat is removed and then back to red if the opponent is not aware of us.

 

Yellow = The goal is to travel to our objective, but shoot close or advantageous objects. Short bursts, sniper fire. Do not increase our awareness too much that it would force us into a green stance.

 

Green = Whip out all your ammo, we're going to be here for a while blasting everything because there is no option for stealth anymore. Mortars, artillery, armor, SMAWs, etc force this mode when conducting operations.

 

Concise and too the point. I like it.

[Forrester~SPARTA~]

Not to but here is how I've thought of it.

 

Red = Try to maintain 100% stealth, do not engage, lay low, and if anything carry silenced weapons. If we are fired upon, weapons go yellow unil threat is removed and then back to red if the opponent is not aware of us.

 

Yellow = The goal is to travel to our objective, but shoot close or advantageous objects. Short bursts, sniper fire. Do not increase our awareness too much that it would force us into a green stance.

 

Green = Whip out all your ammo, we're going to be here for a while blasting everything because there is no option for stealth anymore. Mortars, artillery, armor, SMAWs, etc force this mode when conducting operations.

I'd like to add 2 colors.....

Blue, stop shooting, they are friendly!........

Black, the color of your eyes after your team beaten you for causing blue.....